NEWS: abortion illegal in SD effective 7/1

[MeatPuppet]

if its in her body, its her right to decide.

I disagree. If it is a distinct human life, it should be protected by law. I believe that human life begins before viability. As I said in a reply to PNWbrit, some where around 24 weeks.

i find it interesting that the same people (right-wing conservatives) that are fighting to keep a woman from terminating a pregnancy are also fighting to keep her from delivering a healthy baby (lack of affordable health care, pre and post natal), keep her from being able to properly raise a child once it is born (lack of affordable day care combined with a pathetic minimum wage), keep her from preventing the pregnancy in the first place (just say no approach to birth control education), and keep the resulting child poor and stupid to continue the cycle (consistent cuts to our education programs).
Perhaps if the conservatives were to better fund child care, health care, education, and availability of birth control education they would see a drop in abortions without reverting to draconian measures.

If you don't see a difference between the abortion debate and the social isssues you listed, then you don't know what you are dealing with in your opposition. Libs tend to look for equality of outcome while the conservitaves tend to look for consistancy in the underlying principles, without regard to the outcome.

The principles underlying the abortion debate concern the protection of innocent life. The social issues you listed are about the role of government and personal responsibility. The two have very little to do with each other in the minds of most conservitives. This difference in visions of how the world should(does, to many) work is at the heart of the differences between conservitives and the libs.

some might, but i would expect that a resonably reflective person would realize that no one is demanding that anyone agree about anything.

The only ones who are insisting that the other side conform to their beliefs is the anti-choice.

It is the anti-choice groups that are trying to force everyone to follow their personal beliefs.

Actually the pro choicers are demanding that people agree with them that the fetus is not a distinct human life. Either that or they are asking to be able to commit murder and get away with it.

The point is to protect the minority from the majority.

The pro lifers would say that the minority that needs protecting is the unborn.

I wouldn't. Just as the individual states could not be trusted to handle civil rights legislation and suffrage in a manner that would equally protect all members of society, they cannot be trusted to handle this issue either.

There is certenly no easy resolution to this debate and a *lot* of people are going to be upset no matter what happens. It is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out.

[MeatPuppet]

I survived a partial birth abortion. I then roundhoused the doctor.

You know...you are just almost funny
.

[MeatPuppet]

Not to spoil your special moment of agreement but, for the record, brain waves are recorded at 42 days.

OOOoooo! Damn, you are right! Damn damn damn! That complicates my position. I'm going to have to do some soul searching. But I still can't support an abortion after there is brain activity.

Damnit! Pesky facts! They keep getting in the way of things.

Thanks for the info.

[ill-advised strategy]

I guess you all who want to force women into birthing unwanted children had better be ready to deal with the consequences of abused, neglected, unwanted children who grow into abusive, fucked up adults. Maybe you are, but I'd bet you're not.

[BLOODSWEATSTEEL]

I guess you all who want to force women into birthing unwanted children had better be ready to deal with the consequences of abused, neglected, unwanted children who grow into abusive, fucked up adults. Maybe you are, but I'd bet you're not.

I am. Call me sick; but I believe in the need for a social heirarchy. Abusive, fucked up adults have a place in our society. Nobody ever said the world is a pretty place, and trying to manipulate it into such is equally [if not more] devastating than allowing what is natural to occur. I would go so far as to say that widely/freely practiced abortion under the pretense you have noted---- is not much different than Hitler's trying to create the "Master race."

[MassLiberal]

I was wondering who would bring up the hitler reference first.

[PNWbrit]

I was wondering who would bring up the hitler reference first.

Or Pinochet

[Spats]

The central problem here is that people want moral certainty, and the only way to be 100% morally certain is to be completely absurd.

Absurdity #1:

A woman is in the hospital, holding her newborn baby. A crazy person comes in and shoots the baby dead. Murder.

A woman is in the hospital giving birth. Her water has broken and she is pushing, but the baby's head hasn't crowned yet. A crazy person comes in and shoots her in the abdomen. If you strictly believe that life doesn't begin until birth, you can't say "he shot the baby", you have to say "he terminated the fetus". I think we can agree that this is absurd.

Absurdity #2:

60-80% of fertilized eggs fail to implant in the uterus. If life begins at conception and has all the rights of a newborn baby, this means that women are killing 3-4 babies for every baby born!

The only way to get around this is to outlaw natural conception, and force women to have fertilized eggs implanted by a fertility clinic. Bet that goes over great with the Christian Right! (Unfortunately it doesn't always work, either.)

Let's follow this to the logical conclusion: tampons and petri dishes buried in graveyards, in little coffins, with headstones attached. No? That's silly? But if life begins at conception, why does a blastula deserve any less respect and honor than a newborn child?

Absurdity #3:

I'm quoting this example again. "If a fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and you can only save a petri dish with five blastulae or a two-year old child, which do you save?"

I think we can agree that anyone who saves the petri dishes is a wingnut. Yet if a fertilized egg equals a child, then you *must* save the petri dishes.

Absurdity #4:

A pregnant woman learns that the fetus she carries is anencephalic:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/a...nencephaly.htm

Is carrying to term morally different than abortion, when the child has no brain, no skull, and no chance of living more than a few days?

Conclusion:

Everyone wants to draw a line in time, before which something is clearly not human, and after which it clearly is.

The trouble is, there isn't one.

If you draw the line at conception or at birth, you quickly enter into absurdity. But if you draw the line anywhere else, you don't get any comforting moral certainty. You can always come up with an argument for drawing the line one week earlier or later.

What do we do? Who decides?

I can think of only one solution: the woman decides, because she must live with the consequences of her decision.

[MassLiberal]

^^^ Well put

[lemon boy]

Nice job spats.

[Long duc dong]

^^^^Very well put. There is no excuse for being against abortion. But apparently facists are alive and well.

[MeatPuppet]

Abusive, fucked up adults have a place in our society.

???



.....

[mr_gyptian]

the woman decides, because she must live with the consequences of her decision.

I deleted the rest because I mostly agree. One problem with this statement is the fact that a woman is not the only one that must live with the consequences. Her spouse does too. I can't say that it should be a blanket requirement because of abusive situations. However, saying there is only one person that is responsible for the child is not true.

I didn't read everything in the thread, but has anyone read what it's like to get an abortion in SD anyways? Apparently there is only one planned parenthood clinic that has to be serviced by MN doc's. Seems to me that abortion is already banned, in effect.

[LAN]

I deleted the rest because I mostly agree. One problem with this statement is the fact that a woman is not the only one that must live with the consequences. Her spouse does too. I can't say that it should be a blanket requirement because of abusive situations. However, saying there is only one person that is responsible for the child is not true.

I didn't read everything in the thread, but has anyone read what it's like to get an abortion in SD anyways? Apparently there is only one planned parenthood clinic that has to be serviced by MN doc's. Seems to me that abortion is already banned, in effect.

I don't think that spats is saying that a spouse/partner doesn't have to live with the consequences, but rather she has to live with all of the consequences. Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. While the spouse/partner is directly affected, the ramifications run much deeper for the woman.

[mr_gyptian]

I don't think that spats is saying that a spouse/partner doesn't have to live with the consequences, but rather she has to live with all of the consequences. Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. While the spouse/partner is directly affected, the ramifications run much deeper for the woman.

A different take on this. I guess this takes Roe rationale to the other extreme:


Wednesday, March 08, 2006
Abortion Rights For Men

A 25-year-old computer programmer is ready to file suit to block a child support order to pay for a daughter he does not want. The National Center for Men plans to use the suit to establish that men, too, can choose whether they want to become parents. The Associated Press quotes the center's director, Mel Fiet:
"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have - it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions. I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."
Men who do not pay child support are vile little cretins who do not deserve to sit at the same table as civilized men. My own father went to jail before he paid for support for me and my sisters, sired during his 13-year marriage with my mother. That was in the 1960s before the federal effort to collect child support (the lawyer got 40% of the money -- bastard).

That said, as long as we are going to pretend women have abortion rights, then the 14th Amendment compels us as a nation to extend this parental termination rights to men. This lawsuit should do what South Dakota's misguided abortion ban cannot do: End abortion rights.

The double standard is outrageous. Consider AP's quote of feminist Jennifer Brown:
"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government - literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want. There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."
Excuse me, but the federal government collects $22 billion a year in child support. There are heavy fines for companies that do not dock the pay of parents to comply with this intrusive law.

Society will not ban abortion. It is too convenient. Instant irresponsibility, if you will. But surely justices will see the futility of society allowing adults to just chuck the consequences of their actions like this.

[MTT]

I 'm Sorry,
But with the Cazillions of Chat forums out there why does this shit have to show up in TGR,

Its a very volitle subject, that I would not want to disscuss with a ski buddy of MTB companion, or get into while touring the B/C

So just my opion but I would perfere that you take the POLARIZING POLITICAL AND MORALITY SHIT ELSEWHERE

Maybe others feel the same? Maybe I'm in left field here?

But I needed to get it out there

[Lone Star]

I'm in left field here

01000101

[Dug]

So just my opion but I would perfere that you take the POLARIZING POLITICAL AND MORALITY SHIT ELSEWHERE

Why? Does talking about sensitive subjects make you squeemish? My friends and I sometimes engage in pretty heated topics while we're slogging up a hill. It's a lot of fun!

I don't see any problem with it happening here. We're just a bunch of snow lovers having a discussion. Just chill, or dont click on the topic link.

[Cono Este]

Or Pinochet

I thought that was a sore subject. Feel free to start a new thread on that if you like. We can put all the facts on the table.

[summit]

gyptian makes interseting points...

in general:

a woman's choice of being a parent can be made before or after conception.

a man is locked into parenthood from the moment of conception unless the woman says otherwise. he can also be denied parenthood by the decision of the woman

it doesnt matter how much the man wants to be a parent or does not want to be a parent, the woman holds all power to make or keep parenthood from the man once the orgasm is done

health excepted, this is because the woman gestates and births for 9 mo.(?)

[Tippster]

I 'm Sorry,
But with the Cazillions of Chat forums out there why does this shit have to show up in TGR,

Its a very volitle subject, that I would not want to disscuss with a ski buddy of MTB companion, or get into while touring the B/C

So just my opion but I would perfere that you take the POLARIZING POLITICAL AND MORALITY SHIT ELSEWHERE

Maybe others feel the same? Maybe I'm in left field here?

But I needed to get it out there

I herby would like to apologize publicly to you and all others who feel this way for forcing you to click on a thread that was titled NEWS: abortion illegal in SD effective 7/1

My Bad. Clearly it wasn't labeled "NSR" and the original Poster will now be sodomized with a Look binder heel.

[Spats]

One problem with this statement is the fact that a woman is not the only one that must live with the consequences. Her spouse does too. I can't say that it should be a blanket requirement because of abusive situations. However, saying there is only one person that is responsible for the child is not true.

I wanted to stay focused on the "when does life begin?" question. I deliberately didn't address the issue of responsbility for a child once he/she is born -- that's a whole new discussion.

[marshalolson]

My Bad. Clearly it wasn't labeled "NSR" and the original Poster will now be sodomized with a Look binder heel.

what if i get impregnated?

gyptian- if the dude doesn't want to have a kid with the woman, then wear a rubber for fucks sake. or pull out. or put in DER POOPENHAUSEN

[13]

fez, awesome post, dude.

As for my .02 ... I'm glad the choice is there, as difficult as the consequences are.

[summit]

or put in DER POOPENHAUSEN

and post the pics here