NEWS: abortion illegal in SD effective 7/1

**Cyber Cop** · 03-07-2006, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Spats

"I brought up one of my favorite forced birth conundrums the other day, guaranteed to make wingnut "life begins at conception" heads explode. If a fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and you can only save a petri dish with five blastulae or a two-year old child, which do you save?"

I would love to see someone ship a box of frozen embryos to good ol Pat Robertson. "Warning. Live contents, must be kept frozen for eternity."

BLOODSWEATSTEEL · 03-07-2006, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

this means that you were NOT LEGALLY ALIVE according to the government.

....And if you only were to rely on your government to tell you what is morally/ethically right and wrong, then this logic would be rock solid.

**MassLiberal** · 03-07-2006, 03:48 PM

yet if you rely on a book writen 2000 years ago, your morallity is?

**marshalolson** · 03-07-2006, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by BLOODSWEATSTEEL

....And if you only were to rely on your government to tell you what is morally/ethically right and wrong, then this logic would be rock solid.

not worried about morals/ethics - nobody will ever agree on anything, ever. i challenge you to come up with 1 subject that every person will agree upon.

that is totally besides the point. i am more talking about THE LAW in this country.

**rideit** · 03-07-2006, 03:56 PM

Mesa fire official arrested in bestiality case

The Arizona Republic
Mar. 6, 2006 06:30 PM

Leroy Donald Johnson was caught this weekend in a barn with his pants down, literally, according to a sheriff's office report.

"You caught me{ellipsis}. I tried to (expletive) your sheep," Johnson told his neighbor, according to the report.

But the Mesa Fire Department deputy fire chief changed his story when a sheriff's deputy arrived on his doorstep minutes later, denying anything happened. advertisement

Johnson, 52, was jailed on suspicion of disorderly conduct and criminal trespassing after the neighbor told investigators he found Johnson, unzipped and holding a sheep down on its side.

That's the sanitized version. The Maricopa County Sheriff's Office report released Monday night is a little more graphic.

Johnson's neighbor told sheriff's deputies he was called home Saturday afternoon when his 13-year-old daughter saw Johnson drag one of their sheep into a barn.

The teenager said Johnson had first knocked on the front and back door of the home in the 1200 block of East Catclaw Street, in a county island in Gilbert, before grabbing the small gray lamb, records showed.

One of the deputies noted that Johnson had bloodshot eyes and smelled of alcohol, and neighbors who confronted him said he admitted everything.

According to the deputy's report, "(The owner) took me into the back yard and showed me where he and (neighbor) pulled up. He took me through the corral gate and I saw the victim for the first time. She was a small gray lamb about three feet tall and four feet long."

The men then told the deputy they walked over to the small barn, opened the door and "saw Leroy holding the lamb down on its side in the hay with his pants down trying to have sex with it. That's when he made the statement about (expletive) the lamb."

The men said Johnson stood up and zipped up his pants.

"The sheep ran out of the barn at that point," the report says.

Johnson apologized, according to the report, and said he'd had "too much to drink."

The Mesa Fire Department placed Johnson, on paid leave Monday pending an internal investigation. Johnson, deputy chief of technical services, has been with the Mesa Fire Department for nearly 26 years.

Assistant Fire Chief Mary Cameli said Johnson has been an "exemplary" employee with a spotless personnel record.

"We were all very surprised by this," Cameli added.

Johnson did not return a call for comment Monday.

When confronted by a deputy at his home, Johnson initially denied the incident, saying he had been at his neighbor's house to talk about annexation.

Johnson said he went into the barn after hearing noises. The deputy said to him, "I believe something more than that happened," and offered help.

Johnson responded, "I probably do need some help, but I don't know if this is the time or place for it," according to the report.

When asked how the animal got into the barn, Johnson said, "I'm not going there," then asked if he was going to be arrested and demanded to know his legal options.

He continued to deny that anything happened in the barn and was arrested.

"I think it's disgusting," Sheriff Joe Arpaio said. "I think of Ghandi who said you judge the morality of a country by the way they treat their animals. . . . I do look at (bestiality) as some type of animal cruelty."

**summit** · 03-07-2006, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

edit (directed at summit): also, the last time i checked, the biggest proponents of capital punishment are the biggest advocates for the repeal of abortion. and don;t toss around words like "murder"... the irony is way to glaring.

You didn't read very well. Besides having me completely backwards, MURDER is what the anti-choice people consider abortion. That is why they are so dedicated and vehement in their drive to make it illegal. That is what I was trying to make clear in my other post.

I asked a lot of questions. I believe one should be able to ask, then answer. Here are mine:

1. I believe that human life starts with sentience and ability to survive without artificial means
2. I believe that the mothers life and real health always come before that of the fetus or unborn human life unless she decides otherwise. I believe other exceptions are rape, incest, and if a birth defect is found that will cause undue suffering or death before adulthood or if treatment is beyond the means of the parents.

When it comes to being financially or otherwise unfit to care for a child that has met my definition for human life in 1., I think it is still morally reprehensible to abort.

For the record I am in favor of capital punishment (though not as it stands in the US), corporal punishment, euthanasia, and mandatory civics and parenting classes. I am against torture.

Why not reread that last post (bottom of pg3) and then post up your answers to the real questions?

**Cyber Cop** · 03-07-2006, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by rideit

Mesa fire official arrested in bestiality case

Fucking classic. This needs it's own thread. I once had a texan tell me the trick was to get the back hooves inside your boots.

**marshalolson** · 03-07-2006, 04:12 PM

so summit: life does not begin on a premature baby that needs an incubator/breathing apparatus? born w/ metal defects? only through sentience are you truly "alive" - nothing non-sentient is living?

i say:
1. born at delivery
2. you are dead when you your heart stops beating, your lungs stop breathing, and your brain stops sending pulses.
3. i think that everyone has the right to end their life in anyway they see fit, but barring a written will, no-one else has the right to interperet what my descion is.

I am arguing that abortion is LEGAL based on the LEGAL definition of life.

FWIW: i am for capital punishment (to the point that i think there should be MORE capital crimes), euthanasia, and even torture inflicted upon soldiers/generals, but against the concept of war (collateral damages

)

ps: summit: you know i respect your opinion, and was in no way trrying to call you out. hopefully i am answering your questions...

**summit** · 03-07-2006, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

so summit: life does not begin on a premature baby that needs an incubator/breathing apparatus? born w/ metal defects? only through sentience are you truly "alive" - nothing non-sentient is living?

Please note I said "HUMAN LIFE" not jsut life. A fertilized embreyo is alive. Is it a living person? Not in my book. There is a difference between being a living mass of cells and being a de jure live person.

A cat is alive, but not a sentient. A cow is alive but is not a sentient being. That is why most of us feel OK about grilling a burger.

Regarding the premature baby my definition regarded only when a fetus reaches the definition for a de jure human life. The premature baby, as you so elegantly have stated...

1. born at delivery

I agree with 2 and 3 mostly... but if someone has no brain function they are no longer human in my book.

I too respect your opinion, sorry if I misinterpreted your tone.

**Will** · 03-07-2006, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

so summit: life does not begin on a premature baby that needs an incubator/breathing apparatus? born w/ metal defects? only through sentience are you truly "alive" - nothing non-sentient is living?

Actually, I'm mostly with Summit on this one. If you're not thinking, you're not living. Or at least not 'living' in the way that we would value your life enough to go to great lengths to protect it.

(there's a big problem with the practical implementation of this ethical system, btw)

I don't know if Summit would agree with this guy, but from where I stand, he makes some sense and makes me think:
Peter Singer

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Consistent with his general ethical theory, Singer holds that the right to physical integrity is grounded in a being's ability to suffer, and the right to life is grounded in, amongst other reasons, the ability to plan and anticipate one's future. Since the unborn, infants and severely disabled people lack the latter (but not the former) ability, he states that abortion, painless infanticide and euthanasia can be justified in certain special circumstances, for instance in the case of severely disabled infants whose life would cause suffering both to themselves and to their parents.

As for C.E.'s response to my post: I don't think the imposition of various forms of social organization are arbitrary and without evidence to the same degree that a strict definition of the importance/value/onset of life would be. Also, most folks are willing to agree that the system we want is the one "that works". There is a shared goal in mind, just disagreement on how best to acheive it. Not many people take the following argument seriously: "we should embrace communism, not because it works, but because it is a fundamentally good idea."

Especially as in any discussion of "Life" (capital L), everyone is arguing past one another using different starting principles and different standards for what constitutes a "good" argument.

ps -

, I promised myself I was going to stay away from here. It was killing my productivity. Damnit... and I just stopped by to find some skis for a friend....

**Lone Star** · 03-07-2006, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

i challenge you to come up with 1 subject that every person will agree upon.

big dumps kick ass.

**Blurred** · 03-07-2006, 04:38 PM

When we get done with this discussion, lets get back to gun rights and capital punishment. I really can't get enough of these/those threads.

**lemon boy** · 03-07-2006, 04:40 PM

yeah, me too. I just got a new rifle to capitally punish some motherfucking critters. Oh, we need to talk about vegans and eating them.

**MeatPuppet** · 03-07-2006, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

this means that you were NOT LEGALLY ALIVE according to the government.

Then explain to me how someone can be charged with, and convicted for, two counts of manslaughter for killing a woman and her unborn child. I believe this has happened more than once.

**Kya** · 03-07-2006, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by glademaster

The people of SD did not make the choice, their elected representatives did, and there lies the inherent flaws in a two party, republican system. America is no longer a democracy or a republic, the nation has effectively been hijacked by our legislative bodies, and this is yet another sign.

V.O.R.D.

Vote Out Republicans and Democrats

**PNWbrit** · 03-07-2006, 04:54 PM

one for the right to lifers.....

So lets just say the SD law comes into effect. What jail sentence would you think appropriate for a woman who obtains an abortion of her child out of state and just to keep it a little simpler let's just say it happens before s 24th week.

and as follow ups....

If she was pregnant through rape or incest would this be mitigation in her sentencing?

What sentence should be passed on the parents of an under eighteen girl who obtain an out of state abortion for her?

**Lurch** · 03-07-2006, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

one for the right to lifers.....

So lets just say the SD law comes into effect. What jail sentence would you think appropriate for a woman who obtains an abortion of her child out of state and just to keep it a little simpler let's just say it happens before s 24th week.

and as follow ups....

If she was pregnant through rape or incest would this be mitigation in her sentencing?

What sentence should be passed on the parents of an under eighteen girl who obtain an out of state abortion for her?

The new law has nothing to do with out of state abortions. There is plenty of bad here no need to go making stuff up.

**soul_skier** · 03-07-2006, 04:59 PM

thats it, i'm moving to kicking horse

**MeatPuppet** · 03-07-2006, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by fez

That's a rather weak argument.

Not so much an argument as an observation.

Pro-choice simply means that a woman can make her own personal choice as to whether or not to have an abortion.

I know what the talking points are, but they fail to address the real issue; that is, when is that life in the womb a distinct human life and no longer simply a parasitic mass of tissue? Nobody in the mainstream(of either side) is saying that a woman does not have a right to make chioces about her own body. What they are saying is that at some point that mass of tissue becomes a human being and, at that point, the woman's right to choose what is done to her body is superceded by the baby's right to live.

By outlawing abortion, the anti-choice group is foisting their beliefs (frequently couched in religious terms) on everyone.

Some might argue that the pro choice group is doing the same thing by demanding that everyone agree that the fetus is not a human life until it is born...

Even if a state allows a woman to make her own personal choice in regards to her personal beliefs and situation, the state is not forcing those who are against abortion to have them.

I would like to see this issue left up to the individual states to decide. Right now it isn't

**PNWbrit** · 03-07-2006, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

I would like to see this issue left up to the individual states to decide. Right now it isn't

But that's not going to happen under the current regime. See assisted suicide, medical marijuana and prescription drugs from Canada

**MeatPuppet** · 03-07-2006, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

But that's not going to happen under the current regime.

I have to disagree. I think there is a good chance Roe vs Wade will be overturned in the next couple of years.

Edit: I forgot to ask; PNWbrit, when do you believe human life begins?

**Rontele** · 03-07-2006, 05:38 PM

This thread= a reduction of all propositions to their most finite level. A reduction so finite, as to risk being absurd.

**watersnowdirt** · 03-07-2006, 05:46 PM

5 pages and I'm the first woman to post in this thread?

Sort of astonishing, and yet fairly representative what this debate probably looks like among our elected officials. A bunch of men talking about what women should do in the case of an unwanted and potentially untenable pregnancy.

Don't take that as criticism - I'm actually heartened to see that most men here do in fact support a woman's right to choose. Rather, it's just interesting to see on a micro level what this conversation must look like at the legislative level.

**Rontele** · 03-07-2006, 05:48 PM

This entire argument also takes for granted that the case would ever reach the Supreme Court. They may see how radical the statute is and determine that it is not even worth it to test Roe. They will just deny cert. Conversely, the conservatives could try to prevent cert. as to deny another case going on the record strengthening the stare decisis effect of Roe.