Ski Recommendations for a mini-Maggot

[mday]

My 12 year old is outgrowing his current skis (2 yo 138 cm Scratch Jr). He lives for fresh pow and trees, but it seems like all of the Jr skis are geared towards beginners, racers or the park & pipe. He's still a bit under 5' and he probably weighs about 90 lbs now. In our last trip to Alta, he was in the level 9 kids class and they skied runs like Gunsight, Stonecrusher and Devil's Castle (in the chop) and he loved it all.
I'm hoping to get him something in an end-of-season sale this year, assuming I can find the right ski. I'd like him to have something a little wider under foot, given how much time he tries to spend in deep snow. From what I can tell, it's mostly the park & pipe skis that have wider waists, but they usually use advertising phrases that describe how they're designed to be soft for initiating tricks or landing on the tails. These still might be the right flex for him for all I know, but their advertising doesn't make it obvious to me.
So, until PMGear make *true* baby Bros does anyone have any suggestions? He'll mostly be skiing on these at Tahoe & Mammoth with the occassional trip to Utah.

[The Dad]

Perhaps these?

[nick > jesus]

head mojo 70 could be good

[mntlion]

150cm, powder plus 110mm wasit


150 heli daddy


158 dynastar little big fats, or nobis

[jonski]

might take some convincing because of the graphics, but what about something like the phat luv? or if yo can find it, the seth pistols that were in a 159 from last year? or a fujative in 159, 85mm underfoot....?

Edit: Fischer Maunga, 159cm, 84mm underfoot. I love my Atua's, and these are like a scaled down version of them...

[zion zig zag]

My 12 year old is outgrowing his current skis (2 yo 138 cm Scratch Jr).

Want to sell?

[nutcase]

Maybe wait at least till the start of next season if not another year? At 12 years old i'm sure he's going to start shooting up rather quickly and would soon be able to handle some of the smaller "adult" skis.

[Catbert]

150cm, powder plus 110mm wasit


150 heli daddy

these could be scary @ 90 pounds. Head skis are bomber, and not soft crappy skis at all. Buy big, because he will grow.

[InspectorGadget]

I bought, I mean Santa brought, Mini-Gadget a pair of 158 Volkl Dogens this year. At 111-81-104, they're wide enough to work well in the powder and he's having a great time on them. Yes, I bought them longer so he won't outgrow them immediately - he's 11 and a bit chunky.

I also bought a 150 Powder Plus from mtnlion for my wife and kids to fight over on those big days.

[cptncha0s]

get him a pair of the old k2 mini enemies, they are like green and black. 75 waist and 146 cms long, probably the stiffest jr non race ski ive ever felt.

[schindlerpiste]

How much for the 150 HeliDaddys? Condition?

[mntlion]

I dont have any, but they are around sometimes

[mday]

Want to sell?

They've been great skis for him, but he's got a little brother already in line for these.

[mday]

All great suggestions guys, thanks.
The Mojos, Mini Enemies, Scratch Pros and 1080's for that matter are all skis that seem to be marketed for the pipe and park. They might be great all mountain skis, but I'm just clueless if there are park specific design choices made that make them not as capable for all mountain use as some of the other skis that have been mentioned. The Icelantic AT Boards are ingriguing, but I doubt that I'm going to stumble across a great deal on these compared to some of the more mainstream choices. Good to know that the mini enemies are stiffer, I'll keep an eye out for them. I also thought about some of the shorter adult skis, likely women's models (the Phat Luv even came to mind). But there's no way a 12 year old will go for flowers (maybe I can dig up some of the painting your skis posts from the past)

I'd be worried about buying boots for next season, but given that I'm 5'8" and his mom is 5'4", and he's always been on the smaller side compared to his classmates throughout his life, there's an upper limit on how much he might grow. I'm a little worried that the 158 - 159 range might be too long for him, but perhaps not? I just don't want to get him into a ski so stiff he can't bend it when he's on the groomers (which is why I thought that a women's ski would be a better choice among the adult model if he could get past the graphics).
Anyway, I have the Powder Plus, Fujative, Pistol, Mini Enemies, Heli Daddy and Dogens on my list of skis to watch out for. If anyone knows if some of the other Jr park skis mentioned are great all mountain skis, or if there are other adult skis available in shorter lengths that would work for someone likely to be in the 100 lb range next season, please keep them coming.

[YB]

The Phat Luv is a pretty nice ski, I wish my 8 year old daughter was big enough for them. Cover them with stickers.

I was told that Volkl has kid powder skis in Europe but they don't bring them over to the US.

[dirtybryan]

The Dogens are a super soft park specific ski, so I would shy away. Like so soft that some park skiers don't even like them because you can't load them up to pop and are unstable on landings.

The Mojo 70 could be a pretty good ski, I have the Mojo 80s, which are pretty stiff for a twin. The only thing I don't like about them is that I mounted them really far back from the suggested line since that was almost true center, and the flex and chord center are designed for that true center mark. Of course take my opinions of the Mojo 80's with some salt as the Mojo 70 is different.

K2's Public Enemy are thought to be good outside of the park, but the fujatives are jib specific noodles. I have heard some of my friends though who picked them up for super cheap say the do rail for a soft ski though. The Public Enemies this year had ptex top sheets that some people complained scratched too easily, but thats just a cosmetic complaint.

The Dynastar trouble makers might be a nice ski for him. They are somewhat soft but not too soft. They do have alot of pop though. They do have rep for not being durable when it comes to riding lots of rails as compared to other skis. No durability issues with them though otherwise. I would recommend these, only thing that is they are only 78 underfoot, which I'm not sure would be enough.

[bio-smear]

Get a pair of Phat Luv 153's, rattle can the topsheets matte black, and do a cool white stenciled logo of your choice. Great ski with a gnar/gotama look for a mini ripper.

[mntlion]

take a delamed powder ride and cut the tail off to make it a 140-150 ish, Instant custom kiddy pontoons .....

JB weld the tail back together and remont the bindings forward ...

I've made some fat kids skis this way....

[mday]

The Phat Luv probably are the best choice, but so far I can't convince him to get past the graphics, even if we paint them. To a 12 year old, I think that asking him to use pink skis (even under a paint job) is a little bit like asking him to wear girl's underwear under his clothes. Given how expensive the Phat Luvs still are, I don't know how hard I want to push this anway.
So it looks like it's narrowing down to:
Dynastar Trouble Maker (2005) 155cm 112-78-102 $189
Fischer Maunga 159cm 121-84-109 $235
Head Mojo 70 154cm 107-76-101 $150

Does anyone know if there were any other changes between 2005 and 2006 Trouble Makers apart from the graphics? Because
there's a big difference in price. I'll keep an eye out for some of the suggestions on discontinued skis, but I guess I'm not
optimistic that I'll come across Pistols, Mini Enemies or Little Big Fats in the right length.

Thanks again for all of the contributions. The input so far is really valuable in comparing some of these skis.

[dirtybryan]

The trouble makers changes were just to strengthen the problems from grinding. They made the underfoot of the skis with some tougher materials, but the ski should perform the same. I think harder base material for the underfoot and some edge reinforcement.

[YB]

I can remember when I couldn't get my son to try my YZ250F, he thought it was too big. I eneded up getting an RM100 which I figured would be good for transition. Hired an instructor and took the thing out and he couldn't keep it running. I told him if you're bike won't run (he couldn't keep the plug clear on the two-stroke) you're going to ride something else. He spent the rest of the day on the instructor's KTM 525SX. It was so cool!

I think you gotta go with the Phat Luv's. If you're son wants to learn how to rip steep and deep pow that's his only logical choice, anything narrower is probably going to make it take a lot longer to learn to let the skis run when it's 12" or deeper.

What I tried is skiboards, the dimensions are right but they're way too stiff. So my daughter is 135cm and if I can't get a pair of those Volkl from Euroland I'm going to be putting her on that 153 next year . She's free skiing her GS boards that are 140's but only 67mm at the waist. That ski is not letting her learn powder as early as she could.

One other ski you could look at is the Line Celbrity JR.it's about 80 underfoot, not a real powder ski. Looks like a good all-arounder though.

[bio-smear]

If I weighed say, 110 lbs instead of 210 lbs, I'd be shredding the Phat Luv myself, painted matte black of course.

[dirtybryan]

The trouble makers changes were just to strengthen the problems from grinding. They made the underfoot of the skis with some tougher materials, but the ski should perform the same. I think harder base material for the underfoot and some edge reinforcement.

I just realized you said 05 and 06, I was thinking 06/07. Only change is graphics, literally.

[mntlion]

I'll come across Pistols, Mini Enemies or Little Big Fats in the right length.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Dynastar-2004-New...QQcmdZViewItem

158 for $200 new

[The Dad]

I've been having more thoughts about this.

I've always assumed that assuming constant other stuff (relative sidecut, speed, etc.), float is basically a function of weight per surface area.

As kids grow, their skis scale up in the two dimensions relevant to surface area -- length x width. But the kids themselves, as three-dimensional beings, scale up in three dimensions -- length x width x height.

Let's define the Approximate Float Index, or AFI, measured in square centimeters supporting each pound of skier.

• Ski length (cm) x average ski width (converted to cm) / skier weight (lbs) = AFI (in cm^2 per pound)

If you rejigger to isolate width or length, so you can hold the others contant:

• Skier weight x AFI / ski length (cm) = average ski width (converted to cm)
• Skier weight x AFI / average ski width (converted to cm) = ski length (cm)

(Note to math nazis: Yes, I know that pounds are English and cm/mm are metric. But it doesn't actually matter for these purposes and, as you see below, the math works out perfectly for my weight and skis, so that's how I'm doing it. Pfft!)

So here I am, Joe Schmo on the Bros -- 188cm x 11.3cm average (125-99-114) width / 212 lardass pounds = AFI of 10 square centimeters supporting each pound. Heck, even on 189 Pontoons, with a 13.7cm average (160-130-120) width, my AFI would be 12 cm^2 per pound.

Compare to a 90-pound kid on 153cm skis. To get the same AFI as me on my Bros, that kid needs a 59mm average width ski -- 90 lbs x 10 cm^2 per / 153cm = 5.88cm. To get the same AFI as me on the mythical 'Toons, that kid needs a 71mm average width ski -- 90 lbs x 12 cm^2 per / 153cm = 7.06cm.

Why did I choose 153? Simple -- that's the biggest size of the 103/65/91 K2 Apache Junior, which has an average width of 86mm, well above the 71mm average that a 90-pound kid would need to hit the same AFI as me on 'Toons. In fact, the 90-pound kid on 153 Apache Juniors would have a whopping 14.62 AFI -- 20% higher than me on 'Toons.

Yes, I know that other factors influence float, most notably sidecut. And fat skis are a lot of fun. But kids float pretty well on most skis. For me, on reflection, the wonderful thing about being on the Bros is that they restore the sense of fun I had as a kid -- eager to jump off groomers into anything deeper at the first chance. Maybe the AFI helps explain why.

But the upshot is, I wouldn't stress too much about finding the widest skis imaginable for your kid. He's going to float no matter what. My 70-pound daughter just switched to 136 Apache Juniors last weekend (16.7 AFI) and her skiing improved markedly, on groomed and ungroomed alike. Get him a quality pair of skis and he should enjoy them regardless.