Middle Fork of the Salmon @ 12K cfs?

[cmsummit]

My buddy pulled a permit for the Middle Fork for June 11th and it looks like it's gonna be big. Historically, the average flow for that date is 9,860cfs and as of now the Middle Fork drainage has 140% snowpack. Anyone done it above 12,000cfs?

[Conundrum]

That's pretty big. I have a couple friends who kayaked Marsh Creek and the Middle Fork in one day at flows higher than that but they were sick paddlers at the time. One guy still is paddling and the other is gone, RIP.

I know people have ran in that high in rafts but you have to be on your game.

Might have more info at

http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=Idaho+whitewater

or

http://www.boatertalk.com/forum/RaftZone

[RootSkier]

Who were those guys? I wonder if I know/knew them, too?

[Conundrum]

Dave Norrell and Graham Wright (I think that is his last name, I haven't seen him since the fall). Dave passed away in a bike race a couple of years ago.

[spindrift]

I'm pretty sure Reg Lake ran it at that level in one day in an early aquaterra sea kayak back about 20+ years ago. I think he did it solo.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Big as in "Best time ever" or big as is "We had some gnarly swims, lost a gear boat for a couple of hours and had some people wanting to hike out"? It all depends on your crew. What type of experience do you oars people have rowing loaded gead boats on big water? I've never paddles the Middle Fork but have boated plenty in ID. At the predicted flows, you'll be looking at "Idaho Class IV" which is continuous, cold and in your face. If you're crew is paddling this type of goods for the first time, you may want to go a few days earlier and paddle the Upper Lochsa or something to see how you do? If you need any safety kayakers or gear boats let me know. I win the party, cook up I top notch river lasagne, always start the coffee, have the green on hand and don't mind dealing with the groover. You'll have the time of your life as long as you are prepared and are honest with your groups abilities.

[Conundrum]

Big as in best time ever.

Foggy Goggles is right on with Idaho Class IV.

[RootSkier]

Idaho class IV is for pussies.






















Just kidding. I can't help but call everything out as "for pussies" in the boater's forum.

[cmsummit]

Got this from a friend of a friend who has lots of experience guiding rafts down the Middle Fork:

The middle fork on June 11 will be high, but not insane. It will be about IV. It is real fast, but not as long as you know where you are, you can avoid the big holes. Boundary Creek launch will most likely be open so he wont have to run marsh creek which is the trouble spot. There are about 5-6 HUGE holes on the middle fork at high water which will destroy anything that goes into them, so just know where they are. No problem in a kayak, but you want rafters that are heads up. I might be able to swing a trip then. Let me know if he wants me and I will check my schedule.



In answer to your friends questions, here is what I would say: Take rafters that have their shit way together. You need someone who knows the river real well to lead cause you don't want to end up in Murph's hole and stuff. The middle rafters have to be able to follow someone's line well. Don't get someone out there that cant remember which oar to pull on to go left. the big danger is the fast water in case of a swim. It moves. If a boat flips, have guides that know to get on the raft and ride it out. Have kayakers that know how to get swimmers. Don't put 4 people in a raft cause that is 4 people to worry about in case of a flip. Run light. Keep your raft fast so you can handle the quick hole avoidance stuff. Dress warm. It is frikin cold up there in June. The river is much trickier on the way up than on the way down. It should be falling by then which is good. Don't take a 20 person group unless they are quality. About 14 would be a nice size or less.



Have a backup plan. When the Mf is at 9 feet, Idaho is going off. Owyhee, Bruneau, Payette, Jordan Creek, hells canyon, Main Salmon (no permit needed before the 19th) and a bunch more is perfect to run.

Sounds right on with what you guys are telling me.

Foggy-
I'll mention your offer of gear boats to my friend with the permit. We're a bunch of 'yakers and right now our biggest challenge is finding experienced oar people who are up to the task. I'll let you know. Thanks.

[grizzle6]

CM--
Wow--that sounds like a good time. And by good, I mean adrenalized as hell and "shit your pants" scary for some moments. I guided the MF for 2 years, and the highest we ever took clients down was at about 6 feet. That was definitely big and fast. The first 25 miles to Indian Creek are literally a blur. I remember rubber was definitely large and in charge. I took a paddle boat through the river left side and submerged half my boat in a standing wave. It surfed us a good 40 yards to the center of the river before momentum pushed us through. If I could have a picture of everybody's faces after that....classic.

Anyway--I don't have a boat, but if you need anyone to row, I would be interested. Good luck--and as others have mentioned in this thread--just make sure your group is dialed, cause that is huge, quick cold water.

[powderfarmer]

cm, If you are in need of oarsmen, I think I could get a few experianced guides together. I know I would be in, and yes i would sacrifice my kayak to row. It isn't gonna be my first rodeo in big water with heavy gear boats, after all I push rubber all summer(custys are basically gear, and don't paddle worth a shit), but I have never been on the middle fork so I probably could row.

[Danno]

I did it last year at about 4.5 feet (they don't really talk about the MF in terms of CFS, it seems). Not sure what that translates into CFS. It was very close to last years high water mark (we put in the first day of permit season). Even at 4.5 ft, the water was MOVING, and it was often quite difficult to eddy out. My advice would be to have a couple of extra yakkers, we had 3 (with 6 rafts) but could have used one or 2 more; the yakkers were invaluable in helping all the boats eddy out, because you do NOT want to miss them.

Have fun, the 7 days I spent on that trip were some of the BEST of my life.

[cmsummit]

I did it last year at about 4.5 feet (they don't really talk about the MF in terms of CFS, it seems). Not sure what that translates into CFS. It was very close to last years high water mark (we put in the first day of permit season). Even at 4.5 ft, the water was MOVING, and it was often quite difficult to eddy out. My advice would be to have a couple of extra yakkers, we had 3 (with 6 rafts) but could have used one or 2 more; the yakkers were invaluable in helping all the boats eddy out, because you do NOT want to miss them.

Have fun, the 7 days I spent on that trip were some of the BEST of my life.

looks like 4.5' on the gage is about 4,300cfs, that's at middle fork lodge.

the average flow for our launch date is 4,700cfs, so about 4.8' on the gage.

when I talk about 12,000cfs, that's down at the confluence of the main Salmon. but with the 140% snowpack up there it could be 6,200cfs or 5.5' on the gage at m.f. lodge on our launch date. I've heard that over 6'(7400cfs) it gets dicey.

[Bunion 2020]

I spent 5 summers on the MF as a paid kayaker/rafter for the USFS. Highest I ran it was around 12000 cfs.

Some things to consider.
1. keep the rafts loaded but not overloaded. Weight is good for punching holes, bad for missing them.
2. Dry suits damn near mandatory, that water will kill someone who takes an extended swim.
3. Murphs hole is the first thing to miss, about 3/4s of a mile from from the put in, river right on a sharp left corner. Cheat to the left.
4. Hells 1/2 mile will be enormous. Velvet can be sneaked river left on the inside of the big rock.
5. Ski Jump does not appear on the map, at very high water it will be real big, Downstream of Marble left, about a mile above Sunflower hot springs.

For the rafters it will be the "days of fear and loathing" for the Kayakers, good clean fun.

We didn't draw a permit to my knowledge, have a great time!!!!

[old p hound]

Talk in the local watering hole last night was there is a solo kayaker on the MF right now. First one I've heard about, also a small group on the Main. There is a new rapid between the confluence and Cache Bar formed by a flash flood a few years back and it's worth taking a look at. It flipped a sweep boat last sumer, quite the river yard sale.

[RootSkier]

Some dude on Boatertalk posted about doing a raft-supported trip on the MF starting March 12. They flew in (obviously) and said it was cold (obviously) and low (obviously). He said he probably wouldn't do it again (obviously).

[Conundrum]

Talk in the local watering hole last night was there is a solo kayaker on the MF right now. First one I've heard about, also a small group on the Main. There is a new rapid between the confluence and Cache Bar formed by a flash flood a few years back and it's worth taking a look at. It flipped a sweep boat last sumer, quite the river yard sale.

There have been a number of pre premit kayak solos. Both day trips and overnights. Also, the new rapid is called Cramer-the easier run is on river right. Most people who go middle flip. You can run it left with a lot of speed and weight in the front of your boat-it's a steeper hole but not quite as big.

[Danno]

looks like 4.5' on the gage is about 4,300cfs, that's at middle fork lodge.

the average flow for our launch date is 4,700cfs, so about 4.8' on the gage.

when I talk about 12,000cfs, that's down at the confluence of the main Salmon. but with the 140% snowpack up there it could be 6,200cfs or 5.5' on the gage at m.f. lodge on our launch date. I've heard that over 6'(7400cfs) it gets dicey.

I have heard the same thing. At 5.5 it will be big, lots of things will be washed out, and eddy's will be hard. But totally doable...

[Danno]

There have been a number of pre premit kayak solos. Both day trips and overnights. Also, the new rapid is called Cramer-the easier run is on river right. Most people who go middle flip. You can run it left with a lot of speed and weight in the front of your boat-it's a steeper hole but not quite as big.

Cramer is awesome. But it's hard to make generalizations, because I hear it changes a lot based upon flow. Here are a few photos from last year:

[Conundrum]

Cramer is awesome. But it's hard to make generalizations, because I hear it changes a lot based upon flow.

You are right. The hole starts to wash above 4-4.5 and then turns into what is seen on the pics. Most runs since it was created for people are under that but this season plenty of people will get runs above that.

PS. It's been raining/snowing in that drainage for five days straight.

[Busheedo]

ran the Trip at 10,000 cft with raft support and had no problem. Except lots on trees in march creek. (porttaged the class 5, can't remember the name) but all the rest were good to go. Black velvet seemed to wash out a bit on the left line. so no major concerns.

[Conundrum]

Black velvet seemed to wash out a bit on the left line. so no major concerns.

Maybe you mean Green Velvet? I only ask because I got intimate with it one time.