The Red Scare continues.

[Magnoe]

What would you do if your 12 year old daughter was raped by a member of your family and became pregnant?

I'd suggest that insisting she carried the baby to full term would be a morally repugnant decision compared to her having an abortion. Even if you'd feel happy with it the removal of that freedom of choice from other families is just plain wrong.

There is nothing in the constitution prohibiting abortion. It's writers had no reason to consider it because it was not a concern of society at the time. With respect your selective interpretation is an offence to it's intent.

Would this country actually be a better place if Doctors are jailed for performing a procedure that has been legal for many years and is considered by the vast majority of mankind to be acceptable?

Wow,
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[Cono Este]

Are you saying that society will be better off if the people you describe procreate?

Totally respect your opinion, I am certainly not against all abortions. But I think Meatpuppet has asked the right question, when does life begin? We should be able to answer this.

I will give you an example. My wife and I had twins 2 years ago. Twins are almost always premature. Ours were 6 weeks but people we now know had them at 24 weeks. They are the same age as our kids and although slow at first, have now finally caught up. By inducing my wife at 34 weeks and the others at 24 we made the decision to have them. They are all heathly and wonderful kids. But the fcked up part is, we could have also made the decision to terminate as well. That in my opinion would have not been right.

When my kids came out they were perfectly heatlhy, definetly well within the defintion of life and deserving of the legal right to it.

I repeat, i am not against the right of a woman to choose.

[The Reverend Floater]

Wow,
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Why? Because PNW suggested incestial rape? I'm not sure where you live or what sort of blinders you've got on but that crime, among others, is a reality for many parts of the country. Here in Idaho it certainly wouldn't be ground breaking news.

Who are you to make these decisions for people in these mind bending situations? Who gave you the authority to decide what a victim of rape can or can't do to better her situation and to decline a potentially worse one for the life inside of her? Answer me that and I'll rest a bit easier knowing the minority is right after all.

[PNWbrit]

Wow,
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

answer the question - would you insist your daughter have the child and more importantly what gives you or anyone else the right to tell someone what they should do in that situation?

[ak_powder_monkey]

if abortion is made ilegal cue black market RU 70 (or whatever that is) and more useless drug war.

[Schmear]

I'm no abortion expert by any means, but I've heard that it's not very pleasant at all. I don't think anyone wants to use it as some "convenient" method of birth control, simply because it is not convenient, especially after being through the experience once.

I'm no expert either, rune. But I can easily imagine the choice, for many, coming down to this: am I willing to endure several days or weeks of physical hell in exchange for not interrupting the life I enjoy, especially if I got to this place by mistake?

It doesn't take a particularly shrewd person to answer "yes," especially if that person realizes just how life-changing parenting is.

[Cono Este]

Such a simplistic and selfish view

For every pro-lifer video that you care to mention can we get to remind you of the the incest or rape victim having to carry their child to full term? Or the simple cold fact that some people get pregnant despite their best efforts to avoid it and just don't wish to have the child.

Your highly dubious moral judgement restricts the rights of others and as has been mentioned already you're not in the majority.

I for one think that the U.S. has far more important things to decide in it's elections than whether abortion should be legal.

I am not against the right of a woman to choose. But this is guerilla freakin BS. What percentage of abortions are really performed after incest or rape? Not many people would have a problem with an early term abortion under such conditions.

Try not to be so emotional PNW, this aint a football match.

[PNWbrit]

I am not against the right of a woman to choose. But this is guerilla freakin BS. What percentage of abortions are really performed after incest or rape? Not many people would have a problem with an early term abortion under such conditions.

Try not to be so emotional PNW, this aint a football match.

Go back and read the proposed SD law - no abortion except if mother's life threatened.

[The Reverend Floater]

Not many people would have a problem with an early term abortion under such conditions.

Try not to be so emotional PNW, this aint a football match.

The proposed law talked about in this thread does just that. And if you know someone who has been through it, then I think it tends to be more of an emotional subject. Probably more so than a football match.

[MassLiberal]

My feelings on this are pretty simple:

If you are against abortion, that's your right. But then you should do something about it that may be actually helpful to society. Work for clinics which provide alternatives, help educate the public about your point of view, offer your support to people in your community dealing with pregnancy.

In my opinion, abortions should be safe, legal, and rare (as Bill Clinton said). Outlawing abortion will not make them disappear, but will make them a privilege of the upper classes and create an underground in which unsanitary and dangerous abortion occur in order to service the rest of the country without family friends who happen to be doctors.

[MeatPuppet]

answer the question - would you insist your daughter have the child and more importantly what gives you or anyone else the right to tell someone what they should do in that situation?

Not trying to be incendiary, but there are a large number of people in the world, mostly in the middle east, who believe they would/do have the right to kill their twelve year old daughter if she were raped in order to preserve the "honor" of the family. What would your response be to them if they asked you the same question in reference to them?

Again, I'm not trying to start a fight or win an argument, your position seems to be well thought out and I am curious how you would respond to the question.

[Magnoe]

answer the question - would you insist your daughter have the child and more importantly what gives you or anyone else the right to tell someone what they should do in that situation?

Guys,
settle down. I was just using a quote from the movie "Zoolander". I didn't know what else to say from PNWBrit's post. PNWBrit, I'm sure you are a great guy and I know we just want to see what's best for our nation, but your post was not a very sound one in my opinion.

The first part of your question is easy. That would suck beyond mention. But I already told you that my position is two wrongs don't make a right. I would not suggest my daughter terminate a life even though it was conceived from the most atrocious way possible. Of course, it is still her decision based on current law, but that would be my position if she asked for council.

Ok, as for the rest of the post... since you insisted...I feel like I'm in a heated 7th grade speech and debate. I would gladly respond to some of lucid thoughts of AlpineDad and YesIsaidYes.

[PNWbrit]

Not trying to be incendiary, but there are a large number of people in the world, mostly in the middle east, who believe they would/do have the right to kill their twelve year old daughter if she were raped in order to preserve the "honor" of the family. What would your response be to them if they asked you the same question in reference to them?

Again, I'm not trying to start a fight or win an argument, I assume your position is well thought out and I am curious how you would respond to the question.

Don't really see how you can draw a parallel between the two situations - do you really think killing a twelve year old rape victim comparible to terminating a pregnancy?

But...

Exactly the same as to anyone else - keep your shitty fucking bullshit religous beliefs inside your own mind. Support your daughter by protecting her future and health. Consider and counsel an abortion rather than compromise her life and health (and the planet doesn't need anymore unwanted children).

[Magnoe]

Don't really see how you can draw a parallel between the two situations - do you really think killing a twelve year old rape victim comparible to terminating a pregnancy?

But...

Exactly the same as to anyone else - keep your shitty fucking bullshit religous beliefs inside your own mind. Support your daughter by protecting her future and health. Consider and counsel an abortion rather than compromise her life and health (and the planet doesn't need anymore unwanted children).

ummm... make that a 6th grade speech and debate.

[Tippster]

This law should be a boon to the Social Net of SD, since they'll now have more people depending on public medicine, welfare, schooling, green stamps, etc. and these same conscientious lawmakers will certainly back up their "right to life" with the means to actually live it, no?

[MassLiberal]

It also just seems so hypocritical. To take a line from the family guy:

Abortion: That's the only way conservatives don't like to kill people.

[Cono Este]

PNW, yes I read the article, but I think this debate has extended beyond the circumstances of just rape or incest. You yourself have broadened it by stating that a "fetus is not a baby". I would like to know what you think of my own personal example. Read my earlier post about my wife and I. You do not have to be a religous freak to believe life could begin before birth.

Mangoe dont you ever qoute such a shitty movie again!

[Magnoe]

It also just seems so hypocritical. To take a line from the family guy:

Abortion: That's the only way conservatives don't like to kill people.

That's a funny line even though people would categorize me as a friggin conservative..

[PNWbrit]

Of course, it is still her decision based on current law.

But.... not for much longer if you get your way.

and if you happen to live in SD Uncle Billy will get to visit the baby every other weekend!

[Magnoe]

But.... not for much longer if you get your way.

and if you happen to live in SD Uncle Billy will get to visit the baby every other weekend!

Agreed. That's why I stated earlier that paternal rights is the first issue that needs to be addressed in that sick situation.

[PNWbrit]

PNW, yes I read the article, but I think this debate has extended beyond the circumstances of just rape or incest. You yourself have broadened it by stating that a "fetus is not a baby". I would like to know what you think of my own personal example. Read my earlier post about my wife and I. You do not have to be a religous freak to believe life could begin before birth.

Mangoe dont you ever qoute such a shitty movie again!

Cono - I don't think there is a legally measurable line that makes one abortion o.k. and another not. But that absolutely does not give society the right to legislate against all terminations from late term to the morning after pill. The SD law reads like it was written by the Talliban and is an insult to a modern democracy.

Congratulations on your twins.

[summit]

There is a simple reason why people are so adamant on the issue. It comes down to the highest crimes in humanity: taking the life of another. The devil is in the details of what is a human life. The anti-choice people believe that the fetus is a person and those involved in abortion are murderers. While certain pieces of religious or philosophical doctrine are possible to overlook when those who do not believe as you do violate that doctrine, murder is virtually impossible to ignore. This is why anti-choice people get so worked up over the pro-choice people (and there is a great spectrum between the two).

This argument is only about two basic questions with a partially irrelevant follow up:

1. When does the potential for human life become de jure human life?

Prior to the act of sex when there is a potential for sperm or egg getting into position where they could at some point be available to meet should the act of sex occur?
During the act of sex when there is a potential for sperm and egg meeting?
Upon fertilization? After implantation?
During pregnancy? When? The start? When a certain point of mental development is reached? When the life can be self sustaining?
The point of natural birth?

If you decide de jure human life occurs prior to natural birth, then
2. Under what circumstances can this de jure life still be terminated?

Threat to mothers life? How certain of a threat?
Rape?
Incest?
Threat to mother's health? How great and how certain? Does it just have to be a physical threat?
Severe birth defect? How severe? Even if it is survivable? Even if the parents can afford the financial burden?
Unfit parents? Legalyl unfit? Culturally by age and maturity? Financial means?
Overpopulation rules? (think Chinese mandatory abortion law)

How do you draw your answers to these questions?
Religious doctrine?
Personal philosophy?
Some sort of logic or scientific reasoning?
Enlightened cultural pragmaticism?
The voices in your head (or on the AM talk radio)?

-------------------
I believe one should be able to ask, then answer. Here are mine:

1. I believe that life starts with sentience and ability to survive without artificial means
2. I believe that the mothers life and real health always come before that of the fetus or unborn life unless she decides otherwise. I believe other exceptions are rape, incest, and if a birth defect is found that will cause undue suffering or death before adulthood or if treatment is beyond the means of the parents.

Because the voices told me...

When it comes to being financially or otherwise unfit to care for a child that has met my definition for life in 1., I think it is still morally reprehensible to abort.

For the record I am in favor of capital punishment (though not as it stands in the US), corporal punishment, euthanasia, and mandatory civics and parenting classes. I am against torture.

-------------------

That long list of countries, the South and Central American countries are predominantly Catholic and there for culturally predisposed to restrictive abortion law.

[Blurred]

If abortion was used more, there would be a chance that the arguing in this thread, and the thread itself, would not exist. That would be a success.

[MeatPuppet]

]Don't really see how you can draw a parallel between the two situations - do you really think killing a twelve year old rape victim comparible to terminating a pregnancy?

It depends on how far along the pregnancy is. For example:
I wouldn't make a distinction between killing a twelve year old rape victim and killing a 6 month old baby. Nor would I make a distinction between killing a 6 month old baby and a newborn. I would also have a hard time makeing a distinction between killing a newborn and a baby who was eight and a half months along but still in the womb. There is legal precident for this as well. There has been more than one case where someone was convicted of manslaughter for causing the death of a fetus who was at 8+ months.

Here is where it gets tricky though. How far back do you extend "personhood"? You could say it starts at viability, but that is arbitrary because viability is largly a matter of technology. What is viable today was not 20 years ago, what is not viable today might be in 20 years; so you get a moving goal post. That seems like a nightmare waiting to happen and bad law.

If I am pressed for an answer, I would have to say that "personhood" starts with brain activity. I know that that is somewhere around 24 weeks, so you have a fully formed body, fingers, toes, et all. But the lack of brain activity comprises most of our definition of death, so it seems proper that the presence of brain activity play heavily into our definition of life.

PNWbrit, where would you draw the line? When, in your book, does that mass of tissue become a human with all the appropriate rights?

Exactly the same as to anyone else - keep your shitty fucking bullshit religous beliefs inside your own mind. Support your daughter by protecting her future and health. Consider and counsel an abortion rather than compromise her life and health (and the planet doesn't need anymore unwanted children).

Fair enough. Thanks.

[seatosky]

I'm no expert either, rune. But I can easily imagine the choice, for many, coming down to this: am I willing to endure several days or weeks of physical hell in exchange for not interrupting the life I enjoy, especially if I got to this place by mistake?

It doesn't take a particularly shrewd person to answer "yes," especially if that person realizes just how life-changing parenting is.

Would you prefer that children be raised only by those who are able, willing and ready to have and care for children, or not?