That only took around a year: Some of the Abu Grahib photos.

[mr_gyptian]

WOLVERINES!

this was just on the other night. good times, good times. one of the pantheon 80s movies.

likwid, your posts get dumber and dumber every day. right now you're posting like its next week.

[Clack]

Likwid -> you're a fag and suck at skiing and or snowboarding

[smitchell333]

I'd prefer to start with innocent until proven guilty.

NOOO!!! I like Gyp's concept of justice - you must prove you're not a terrorist.

Gyp - prove to us YOU'RE NOT a terrorist!!

Gyptian is a witch, I mean terrorist, Burn him, burn him!!!

I know lets dunk him in water and if he floats - it means he's made of wood (and we all know witches and terrorist are made of wood), then we'll burn him.

[mr_gyptian]

NOOO!!! I like Gyp's concept of justice - you must prove you're not a terrorist.

Gyp - prove to us YOU'RE NOT a terrorist!!

Gyptian is a witch, I mean terrorist, Burn him, burn him!!!

I know lets dunk him in water and if he floats - it means he's made of wood (and we all know witches and terrorist are made of wood), then we'll burn him.

I know this is the padded room and all, but sheesh.

get a hold of yourself, man. You're starting to sound like Al Gore.

[Cono Este]

Innocent until proven guilty is definately a good starting place, something we seem to be missing.

Also, think how the "terrorists" feel and view things. If Iraq invaded the US (highly unlikely but bear with me) and occupied OUR country (which is how many Iraqis feel about us, we are occupying their home), we would surely be fighting back tooth and nail just as they are. We'd be kidnapping, bombing, attacking, doing whatever possible to fight them and get our freedom from oppression.

Calling them terrorists instead of POWs or enemy combatants is a very weak argument, and done only to avoid Geneva. Sick.

I had hoped we could all take a break from this subject, but Yeta that is ridiculous. First of all, If someone occupied our country I doubt 99% of the people we "blew" up would be our own women and children. Second, alot of the bombers, and certainly most of their leadership are foreigners.And finally if you have ever read the Geneva convention you would know that none of those people in Cuba, and most of the people we are fighting in Iraq legally qualify for protection from it. Have you noticed they have no uniforms and cut the heads of civilians. I am no expert, but I think we could execute them on the spot. Thats what we did in past wars. If we did not need intelligence from them I would hope that we would be executing those bastards on the spot.

A Very bad analogy.

[Cono Este]

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Tell me how any of those animals in Cuba qualify for anything but a firing squad? Back in the big one, our Grandfathers shot people like this on the spot.

[yentna]

So, in that case, you advocate that we lock them up without any charges, no chance for fair trial (innocent until proven guilty, foundation of our justice system btw), for YEARS. No legal recourse since they are not classed as POWs or criminals. Mistreatment justified for people in limbo? You call them animals, what proof is there? Maybe some of them have committed heinous crimes, but what about the others? People that have been released with no charges? Were they animals too?

[Free Range Lobster]

More pics!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/14/183059/640




GOD BLESS AMERICA!

[smitchell333]

Tell me how any of those animals in Cuba qualify for anything but a firing squad? Back in the big one, our Grandfathers shot people like this on the spot.

I agree 100% that if we can prove these guys are doing the things that disqualify them from the Enemy Combatant status, then all bets off and yeah then they can be dispatched, but:

1) They have NOT been tried in a true court of law in any sense. Our system (and remember the planting of our democratic system is one of the main why we are purportedly in Iraq) of justice requires innocent until proven guilty. Any divergence from that system is hypocritical at best. We need to stay true to our principles of freedom and rule of law, not fall prey to our fears and vengence, both for ourselves and the rest of the world. We must take the high ground here, thats what this must be all about, showing the world that our system IS the right system, not just tyranny and injustice in the cloak of freedom and democracy.

2) Having Gitmo and Abu are counter productive. How many terrorist recruits have we driven to the recruiting offices for Al Zarqarwi, Hamas, English cells, etc, etc. GIs torturing and humilitating in Iraq and Gitmo at the same time we're justifying because Hussein was a tyrant and the terrorists are evil makes us hypocrites to most of the world. This is as much a struggle over world opinion and opinion in the arab world as it is a battle to kill terrorists and capture Bin Laden. There are more angry arab men and AK-47s than wecan destroykill in 100 years so our goal must be to effectively stop the flow of willing customers to terrorism in addition to interrupting their systems and development of weapons. We must win, and IMO we're doing more damage that any intelligence of dubious value.

3) That a few of our grandfathers did terrible things in the heat of battle on the side of right does is understandable, but does not justify us intentionally doing the same. Again we must take the moral high ground if we are to both believe ourselves in our cause and convince others to join us.

[Cono Este]

I agree with you. There are some great arguements to be made against this war, i just do not hear them very often. But the family and friends that I have had fighting in this war, didnt have anything to do with the decision to go to war. Asking them to fight a war fairly against people that will not take them prisoner, feed them or treat them even as animals in cage is unreasonable. Most of these prisoners were found out of uniform, with weapons, by men and women who risked their own lives to take them prisoner alive in the first place.

Yes we should not compromise our own morals by lowering ourselves to their level, I agree. That A hole in these pictures should given the death penalty as far as I am concerned. But how do we fight this war? It is not about tanks, or airplanes, it is about intelligence.

911 proved to us that people are willing to kill us at any cost. If given the right weapons, they would do great damage to the people and cities in this country. There are willing to live amongst us, pretend to be one of us, all while plotting to murder as many of us as possible. Sometimes I even feel Bush is a moron, but I understand that he sees a great threat in the future. This is not about conspiracy theories, or oil, it is about a nuclear exchange, that will render the world unskiable for quite sometime. Any loss of civil liberties, or reputation in the world we have incurred, will seem tiny compared to what will happen if these people succeed. And I am refering to what our response would be if they do succeed.

If we could determine that this threat was no longer genuine, which is getting harder and harder to do with the rhetoric comming outr of Tehran, we would release all these prisoners, as we did in past wars. But as it stands, many of the prisoners in Gitmo openly vow to return to the war on terror if released.

I made the reference to our Grandads war, I am worng, and so is anyone who cites the Geneva Convention. This is a whole new quagmire. And even if the Bush haters got everything they wanted, it would never change the fact that these people are hell bent on killing us all.

Now we have these Clerics making tours around the world trying to incite the masses for these stupid cartons. Their agenda is very clear. They are just not happy with the last 500 yrs of western Expansion. The world is changing, and even within our heavily insulated country, left unchecked it will catch up to us and the rest of the free world in no time.

[MeatPuppet]

I agree with you. There are some great arguements to be made against this war, i just do not hear them very often. But the family and friends that I have had fighting in this war, didnt have anything to do with the decision to go to war. Asking them to fight a war fairly against people that will not take them prisoner, feed them or treat them even as animals in cage is unreasonable. Most of these prisoners were found out of uniform, with weapons, by men and women who risked their own lives to take them prisoner alive in the first place.

Yes we should not compromise our own morals by lowering ourselves to their level, I agree. That A hole in these pictures should given the death penalty as far as I am concerned. But how do we fight this war? It is not about tanks, or airplanes, it is about intelligence.

911 proved to us that people are willing to kill us at any cost. If given the right weapons, they would do great damage to the people and cities in this country. There are willing to live amongst us, pretend to be one of us, all while plotting to murder as many of us as possible. Sometimes I even feel Bush is a moron, but I understand that he sees a great threat in the future. This is not about conspiracy theories, or oil, it is about a nuclear exchange, that will render the world unskiable for quite sometime. Any loss of civil liberties, or reputation in the world we have incurred, will seem tiny compared to what will happen if these people succeed. And I am refering to what our response would be if they do succeed.

If we could determine that this threat was no longer genuine, which is getting harder and harder to do with the rhetoric comming outr of Tehran, we would release all these prisoners, as we did in past wars. But as it stands, many of the prisoners in Gitmo openly vow to return to the war on terror if released.

I made the reference to our Grandads war, I am worng, and so is anyone who cites the Geneva Convention. This is a whole new quagmire. And even if the Bush haters got everything they wanted, it would never change the fact that these people are hell bent on killing us all.

Now we have these Clerics making tours around the world trying to incite the masses for these stupid cartons. Their agenda is very clear. They are just not happy with the last 500 yrs of western Expansion. The world is changing, and even within our heavily insulated country, left unchecked it will catch up to us and the rest of the free world in no time.

Well said.

[Benny Profane]

But as it stands, many of the prisoners in Gitmo openly vow to return to the war on terror if released.

Holy Shit, you are more of a moron that that gyp idiot.

Where the fuck do you guys get your info? Do you listen to Rush all day and are glued to Fox all night? So far I've heard that somebody has met Ted Kennedy and counted his drinks one night. That from the same idiot who thinks Abu Garib is a tear-er-ists academy. ("now wake brother Saddam up in the back of the cell. I know he had half his teeth extracted a half hour ago by crazy ass hillbilly american soldier, but we are about to start the lesson #3 on how to properly place a roadside bomb."). And now some other asshole claims to know the future plans of prisoners that even the Red Cross finds it very difficult to talk to every now and then.

Obviously you are just a couple of cowards. Sign your asses up and go over there to fight this idiotic "war", and get the fuck out of here. But, of course, you don't have the balls. Like that fat drug addict in Florida who loves to spew hate into his microphone, and has never seen a good fight in his life. Assholes.

[Cono Este]

Holy Shit, you are more of a moron that that gyp idiot.

Where the fuck do you guys get your info? Do you listen to Rush all day and are glued to Fox all night? So far I've heard that somebody has met Ted Kennedy and counted his drinks one night. That from the same idiot who thinks Abu Garib is a tear-er-ists academy. ("now wake brother Saddam up in the back of the cell. I know he had half his teeth extracted a half hour ago by crazy ass hillbilly american soldier, but we are about to start the lesson #3 on how to properly place a roadside bomb."). And now some other asshole claims to know the future plans of prisoners that even the Red Cross finds it very difficult to talk to every now and then.

Obviously you are just a couple of cowards. Sign your asses up and go over there to fight this idiotic "war", and get the fuck out of here. But, of course, you don't have the balls. Like that fat drug addict in Florida who loves to spew hate into his microphone, and has never seen a good fight in his life. Assholes.

If you cannot see that we have some real threats in this world that need facing, then you are the idiot. The fact that you cannot debate the solution to those threats without insults proves you are an idiot.

If you are going to post pictures like this, and you are going to debate the treatment of POW`s, then why dont you post the pictures of our POW`s????????? Would'nt that be fair? I wont post them, because there are none. They we all butchered when caputered. I can PM you some photos of what our soldiers looked like after being butchered if you like? Just let me know if you have the stomach for it.

Just think, people swim accross shark infested waters, from Cuba to get here, and you post your hate of this country. How fckn sad are you.

[Benny Profane]

How old are you? Why haven't you volunteered to fight?

[Free Range Lobster]

then why dont you post the pictures of our POW`s????????? Would'nt that be fair? I wont post them, because there are none. They we all butchered when caputered. I can PM you some photos of what our soldiers looked like after being butchered if you like? Just let me know if you have the stomach for it.

Post em if you got em then.
I'm sure everyone reading this thread has the "stomach" for them.

Besides, its interesting, I do google searches for "us soldier beheaded" "iraq pow casualties" and various mixes of those, yet I can only find two instances of 'coalition' soldiers being taken prisoner and beheaded.

Why's that?
Is there some mass conspiracy I'm missing here of US soldiers being taken hostage?

The core fact remains this:
Bush has been quoted over and over again saying "we don't torture prisoners" yet Abu Grahib photos and plenty of reports from Gitmo keep coming back that prisoners are infact being tortured. Its bullshit and it shouldn't be happening.

[Cono Este]

I will not lower myself to your level and post such pictures for cheap political purpose. i think it is sad that you will post pictures of Iraqis being abused but not of dead american Seals in Afghanistan (hint). Instead why dont you post the pictures of the Taliban cllub med where our captured have been vacationing. Are you kidding me? You know exactly what happens to our soldiers when captured. And so does anyones else reading this. You are as sick as the redneck in your pictures.

And no, Bush does not torture prisoners, only some toothless sicko in abu does. even his commander was cleared from charges. Sad that you use the behaviour of one redneck to smear the entire armed forces and the current administration.

You shouled be deported to Cuba or N. Korea

[smitchell333]

I am not against this war per se, but in my book even should you buy into the need for a war it does not obligate you follow the leadership without any constructive criticism on the strategy.

It IS a different kind of war than any other we've fought with a shifting, ruthless, and nationless enemy. And it is NOT ONLY about intelligence - it is about stemming the tide of the flow of Arab men willing to hurl themselves in a pseudo-holy fury at us and our citizens. Repressing them with violence and torturing terrorists and accused terrorists without the same human rights as any of us would expect for our own is only a recipe for continuing to maintain a environment for percieved injustice from US in the arab and much of the rest of the world.

I agree on the cartoon thing - this is bigger than just a few terrorists or "freedom fighters" - it is a clash of cultures. Islam is largely incapable of tolerance towards any contrary view or expression and this is totally opposed to our way of life. Again all the more important that we stay true to the principles that our founders fought for and our leaders claim to be fighting for today. If we are nothing more than hypocrites in our retoric about human rights, freedom, and the rule of law we stand little chance of really winning this struggle over the long run.

So what do we owe these people? We owe them all the things called for in the Geneva convention - basic sustenance, shelter, and no torture.


This we owe to ourselves, our future, and lastly the other people of the world.

I agree with you. There are some great arguements to be made against this war, i just do not hear them very often. But the family and friends that I have had fighting in this war, didnt have anything to do with the decision to go to war. Asking them to fight a war fairly against people that will not take them prisoner, feed them or treat them even as animals in cage is unreasonable. Most of these prisoners were found out of uniform, with weapons, by men and women who risked their own lives to take them prisoner alive in the first place.

Yes we should not compromise our own morals by lowering ourselves to their level, I agree. That A hole in these pictures should given the death penalty as far as I am concerned. But how do we fight this war? It is not about tanks, or airplanes, it is about intelligence.

911 proved to us that people are willing to kill us at any cost. If given the right weapons, they would do great damage to the people and cities in this country. There are willing to live amongst us, pretend to be one of us, all while plotting to murder as many of us as possible. Sometimes I even feel Bush is a moron, but I understand that he sees a great threat in the future. This is not about conspiracy theories, or oil, it is about a nuclear exchange, that will render the world unskiable for quite sometime. Any loss of civil liberties, or reputation in the world we have incurred, will seem tiny compared to what will happen if these people succeed. And I am refering to what our response would be if they do succeed.

If we could determine that this threat was no longer genuine, which is getting harder and harder to do with the rhetoric comming outr of Tehran, we would release all these prisoners, as we did in past wars. But as it stands, many of the prisoners in Gitmo openly vow to return to the war on terror if released.

I made the reference to our Grandads war, I am worng, and so is anyone who cites the Geneva Convention. This is a whole new quagmire. And even if the Bush haters got everything they wanted, it would never change the fact that these people are hell bent on killing us all.

Now we have these Clerics making tours around the world trying to incite the masses for these stupid cartons. Their agenda is very clear. They are just not happy with the last 500 yrs of western Expansion. The world is changing, and even within our heavily insulated country, left unchecked it will catch up to us and the rest of the free world in no time.

[Cono Este]

I totally agree Mitch,, well said. But I think the system did work in the end. The pictures came out, they were published, and the accused were punished. Unfortunately the way it had to happen, probably did not hellp the soldiers left in the field. BUt maybe the chain of command is to blame for this, not having reported the incident without the pictures.

As far as the islamofacists hurling themselves at us, i think that is more difficult to explain. While you could argue that our present course of action has not stemmed the tide of new recruits, you cannot deny that they set out to kill us long ago, before the war in Iraq began.

The middle east is an interesting history. The middle east has never had the opportunity to define itself, they basically went from hundreds of wandering tribes, to lose associations with the nations created mostly by the league of nations after ww1. So we create these places and tell ourselves that as long as we aid them (or force them) to adopt democracy all will be well and they will thank us and be our friends. That only works in places which share our Christian beliefs which runs over to our systems of law. Most of the countris the Brits have at some time or other controlled, on attaining their independence have kept the principals of the social, economic and political model introduced by the Brits. It is intersting to note that Britain never had a truly Muslim colony. In fact no one did. Until oil was discovered no non Muslim power appeared to be particularly interested in the sands of the middle east. In fact when European Christian powers did have control it was through league of nations mandates. France had current day Lebanon and Syria. The UK had Palestine, Iraq and Jordan and happily left all three without too much pressure from others.

We seem to have either overlooked or forgotten why we were happy to see feudal monarchs or dictators take over and leave the Israelis to sort out their own problems. With the exception of Jordan, the place was ungovernable, and the prime role of whoever was in power was to stop the tribal majorities from eliminating or enslaving the minorities. We made the same mistakes in the middle east as we did in Africa. We assumed that all the people within a national boundary that we had determined were happy with the frontiers location and and liked each other. Well that did not work very well.

So now we have angry mobs of Islamofacists, sitting on the worlds energy supply, with a thirst for nuclear weapons. Definetly not a great situation. They will remain a generally uneducated mass who see freedom from dictators as no more than the right to follow religious fanatics.= Big freakin problems.

[Benny Profane]

So, really, how old are you? And why haven't you volunteered to fight?

[Free Range Lobster]

And no, Bush does not torture prisoners, only some toothless sicko in abu does. even his commander was cleared from charges. Sad that you use the behaviour of one redneck to smear the entire armed forces and the current administration.

Shit rolls downhill.

You think brass takes the fall for anything?
You obviously have no clue of how the real world works.

[Cono Este]

Benny, you just do not get it. The world that you take for granted is changing. You pretend that it will never effect you, but it will. That is one fact that world history can gurantee. You are like a child whose father must go out into the real world and face the harsh realities of providing, while at the same time teach his son to be honest and kind hearted. Well sooner or later that child is going to grow up and realize that it is not so simple, and the life he took for granted does not come for free. The question is, must you learn the hard way? At everyones expense?

How old are you?

[Benny Profane]

Nope, I asked first. C'mon, why are are sitting at your computer when you can be off saving the world from evil? Put it where your mouth is.

[Cono Este]

Ok, that is fair, I am 34. But you need to stop with the one liners, you too Likwid, and the shock photos. Try putting together a decent arguement, maybe you will learn something in process, or teach me something I did not already know. I am actually far more liberal than you think, and open to new ideas, if properly argued. Otherwise I will just keep assuming you are some knee jerk know nothing.

Maybe we could hook for a day at Homiewood? lol

[MeatPuppet]

You think brass takes the fall for anything?
You obviously have no clue of how the real world works.

likwid, do you happen to remember how we found out about Abu Grabe? In case you forgot, it was from the leak of a document in an internal investigation by the military. The "brass" had caught wind of what was going on at Abu Grabe and put a stop to it. So, you're right, the brass isn't going to take a fall for anything because, in this case, the brass had nothing to do with what was going on.

I'm glad you pointed that out. I think it's important to remember that the military leaders put a stop to these things as soon as they found out about them. It kind of draws attention to the fact that this was the act of a few sick people, and not a common practice of the military at large.

[Benny Profane]