My problem with Slope Nazis.....

Blurred Elevens · 12-28-2003, 05:19 PM

I'm going to speak with the "higher ups" tomorrow, and show them what's at stake. They'll probably pull some pro-rated BS on a refund if that even comes. I have a good feeling that they'll be like, well come on in and we'll have to talk. Than the sheriff will be waiting there to arrest me for trespassing...that's the tricks these guys like to play, it's so unfortunate.

Thanks to the advice of many of you, I'll be pointing some of these guys towards this thread. Never under-estimate the power of this place! Thanks to everyone for your support.

**Snow Dog** · 12-28-2003, 06:17 PM

You kids -- always ready to get into a pissing contest. Well kid, you're up against professional pissers and you're just a rookie.

So what do you really want? To keep your pass and be left alone by the patrol? A refund on your pass? What do they want? Don't go in guns ablazing. Be respectful, listen to their position and go from there.

If they banished you from the mountain did they send you a letter? Do they have any proof that you weren't welcome? If not then they don't have a leg to stand on. When you renewed your pass you checked and there was no restriction, right? So they can't charge you with trespassing if you had a valid pass or ticket. It's just an idle threat and you should ignore it.

If they want you gone then the least you should settle for is a full refund or a pass to another mountain (whichever costs more). Remember that you've missed all the early-bird discounts so buying a pass elsewhere will cost you more. Have the numbers from other resorts ready -- you'll only get one chance. Remember that you've been wronged here. You bought a pass in good faith and they screwed up.

If you can't reach a solution then start with the "I'm going to file a complaint with the BBB" or whatever other organizations you want. Don't gloat. Be apologetic. Don't give them a reason to whip it out and start pissing on you. You can always blindside them later if you're in the mood.

Disclaimer: I'm not a negotiator, I just pretend to be one on the Internet.

**skifreakKDL** · 12-28-2003, 06:18 PM

Good luck man. i can't belive they were such asses i've never really had a prob there.

**Sublime** · 12-28-2003, 07:49 PM

Hmm when I busted open my forehead what did you tell me??

Oh karma is just cleaning up shop and it IS a beauty thing ain't it.

**summit** · 12-29-2003, 12:16 AM

Copper Mountain is located in the White River NATIONAL Forest. They can't do *shit* unless you go inside a building. They charge you for lift access, not for terrain access. They can ban you from their lifts but not from their mountain.

Skin up their greens and ski down just to piss them off!

SnowDog has reemphasized my suggestion of sticking to part TWO as long as possible. I agree. Convince them you are the victem. BUT it looks like his pass is already revoked.

Blurred Elevens · 12-29-2003, 12:24 AM

So, does this mean I can tuck doing like 70 MPH through the slow zone as long as I hoof it up the mountain??! Gawd I love this guy!!
http://epicski.com/Assets/HomePageIm...peedSkiing.jpg

Anyone want to video tape me doing this? The slopwatch reaction would be worth a million dollars...muhahahaha!!

**ak_powder_monkey** · 12-29-2003, 12:32 AM

That would be awesome

Human Slalom is the shiznit

**summit** · 12-29-2003, 01:04 AM

70MPH tucked in a slow zone... I don't know if it would stop them from calling the sherrif and trying to charge you with violating the skier safety act... but they can't ban you from national public land.

If they do charge your and you have some money to blow on lawyers, you can appeal that certain parts of Colorado ski law regulating individuals have little validity on federal land (because it doesn't, either because of preemption (for closed stuff) or just because you didn't buy a ticket(if they don't want you on their open stuff))

Technicly they shouldn't be able to arrest you for cutting the ski area boundry lines at the basin because the state of colorado has no authority to prohibit you from accessing public federal land (in this case only the US forest service has that authority), but, people would rather pay a ticked than a 20,000 (actually I have no idea how much it would cost) lawyer fees (cuz you will be appealing quite a ways up until a federal court).

I think there was a nice article that went into much more detail than my last article... I think it was on Couloir magazine's website... it's probably still there... there were two parts. Very well written... explained why the laws were bogus but how hard it would be to have them appealed.

Edited to add:
You don't see keystone trying to stop the cross country skiers that go up Keystone Gulch all the way up Foxtrot to the top of North Peak... or Vail trying to stop snowshoers...

Here aret he Couloir Magazine articles on Out of Bounds Law (written by a REAL attorney)
http://www.couloirmag.com/Articles/features/ob_laws.htm

http://www.couloirmag.com/Articles/f...s/poachers.htm

Blurred Elevens · 12-29-2003, 11:25 AM

Just called them, the head guy is in a "meeting" right now...hmmmmm. Wonder if this will come up...hehe

**Rusty Nails** · 12-29-2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
70MPH tucked in a slow zone... I don't know if it would stop them from calling the sherrif and trying to charge you with violating the skier safety act... but they can't ban you from national public land.

If they do charge your and you have some money to blow on lawyers, you can appeal that certain parts of Colorado ski law regulating individuals have little validity on federal land (because it doesn't, either because of preemption (for closed stuff) or just because you didn't buy a ticket(if they don't want you on their open stuff))

Technicly they shouldn't be able to arrest you for cutting the ski area boundry lines at the basin because the state of colorado has no authority to prohibit you from accessing public federal land (in this case only the US forest service has that authority), but, people would rather pay a ticked than a 20,000 (actually I have no idea how much it would cost) lawyer fees (cuz you will be appealing quite a ways up until a federal court).

I think there was a nice article that went into much more detail than my last article... I think it was on Couloir magazine's website... it's probably still there... there were two parts. Very well written... explained why the laws were bogus but how hard it would be to have them appealed.

Edited to add:
You don't see keystone trying to stop the cross country skiers that go up Keystone Gulch all the way up Foxtrot to the top of North Peak... or Vail trying to stop snowshoers...

Here aret he Couloir Magazine articles on Out of Bounds Law (written by a REAL attorney)
http://www.couloirmag.com/Articles/features/ob_laws.htm

http://www.couloirmag.com/Articles/f...s/poachers.htm

A couple asides:

First, many federal lands enter into concurrent jurisdictional agreements with states -- make sure you understand the situation your particular area is in. Second, court costs are minimal, so don't worry about that and you are always entitled to per se representation (represent yourself). Finally, the lease provisions or other MOUs, etc., may grant the ski area authority to close borders on behalf of a federal agency. Not sure if this happens regularly or not, but I'd be interested in hearing a DOI solicitor's opinion. No time to research this stuff more thoroughly, but it's an interesting legal scenario.

**board** · 12-29-2003, 12:36 PM

Hey Brett, ( Nelson voice ) Ha Ha !

**Mountain Junkie** · 12-29-2003, 12:42 PM

Okay, so if the Gaper Patrol didn't see your name, and they didn't take your pass, what's the big deal? Do you really think that they know you on a first and last name basis and went down to block your pass?

Anyway, I feel your pain. The Gaper Patrol at Copper have pretty much single handely ruined the mountain. I've already gotten my pass yoinked once this year-almost made it two but the guy "was being nice". These dipshits can't ski, so they automatically think that if you are going over some imaginary speed you must be out of control. What they don't seem to realize is control and speed are two different things. Yes, I can appreciate slow zones, but these dicks have taken it to the ludicrous zone. Sorry for the rant, but I'm sick of what Colorado resorts have morped into.

**dipstik** · 12-29-2003, 12:52 PM

whistles? fun zones? man you guys ski at some pretty gay places

**365wp** · 12-29-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Mountain Junkie
The Gaper Patrol at Copper have pretty much single handely ruined the mountain.

Yup. Fifth season at WP, never been hassled. Skiied at Copper under ten times, been "pulled over" three times. I really hope Intrawest doesn't start "cracking down" at WP. They need some serious changes in the training given to yellow jackets.

Blurred Elevens · 12-29-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by 365wp
Yup. Fifth season at WP, never been hassled. Skiied at Copper under ten times, been "pulled over" three times. I really hope Intrawest doesn't start "cracking down" at WP. They need some serious changes in the training given to yellow jackets.

I'd almost guarantee WP is the next mountain under invasion of the slope-nazis.

**Ted Stryker** · 12-30-2003, 12:04 AM

just sent an email off to the Mountain Manager at Copper regarding your meeting tomorrow. i included a link to this thread.

go get'em, karma king

Blurred Elevens · 12-30-2003, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Ted Stryker
just sent an email off to the Mountain Manager at Copper regarding your meeting tomorrow. i included a link to this thread.

go get'em, karma king

Thanks Ted. I knew I could count on you.

**The Jackamo** · 12-30-2003, 02:57 AM

i also shot off an email to copper. hope someone actually reads it

G · 12-30-2003, 03:05 AM

wow, I hate assholes like that.

Bummer, and I have otherwise heard good things about copper in general.

well, there's no way in hell I'll be stopping in there on this year's road trip through the rockies.

**summit** · 12-30-2003, 03:15 AM

OVER 1,000 VIEWS OF THIS THREAD AND COUNTING! HOW IS THAT FOR EXPOSURE!

Rusty Nails - Interesting points, I wonder if those truly apply and if so where. However, NEVER can a resort close a National Forest area to a SPECIFIC person they just don't like. They can ban him from the lifts, but not him specifically from the land.

Blurred let us know what you hear.

As I said before, I'm not gonna buy a Copper Pass for next year after reading this BS

**Mountain Junkie** · 12-30-2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
However, NEVER can a resort close a National Forest area to a SPECIFIC person they just don't like. They can ban him from the lifts, but not him specifically from the land.

Ah, did you read the material in the links you provided above? The article specifically states that the lease agreement gives control of the land over to the ski area.

Blurred Elevens · 12-30-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Mountain Junkie
Okay, so if the Gaper Patrol didn't see your name, and they didn't take your pass, what's the big deal? Do you really think that they know you on a first and last name basis and went down to block your pass?

Yeah, they know me on a first and last name basis, and that's exactly what they did.

**iskibc** · 12-30-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
Thanks Ted. I knew I could count on you.

hehe, now he's talking to himself through his other alias!

So what's the word? Banned or Court?

**splat** · 12-30-2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Mountain Junkie
Ah, did you read the material in the links you provided above? The article specifically states that the lease agreement gives control of the land over to the ski area.

Indeed, the malicious mischief statutes are being enforced in California to keep certain 'undesirable' skiers out of certain resorts. I have come quite close to making the list due to certain articles I written that have been critical of certain resort managements.

California's Malicious Mischief statute states:

Every person who willfully commits a trespass by any of the following acts is guilty of a misdemeanor:
. . . (q) Skiing in a closed area. Knowingly skiing in an area or on a ski trail which is closed to the public and which has signs posted indicating the closure.

This statute could be used to fine any one skiing in an avalanche area as well as skiing in an area of a ski resort where the resort does not want you to be. The resort as a lessee of the land has the right to control access to any part of the leased area, just like you have the right to control access to your own home or business. Here again, however, in order to be arrested, the area or trail must have signs posted indicating a closure.

What I'm saying is that certain resorts are restricting the rights of certain skiers from entering their lease area for reasons other than skiing OB. Happened last year because someone was demo'ing skis without permission, accused of selling said skis in competition with a certain resort's shop, banned and threatened with trespassing if they came back to that certain resort.

**The Jackamo** · 12-30-2003, 01:46 PM

Mr. Curry,

Thank you for contacting us regarding our Slope Safety program. I am sorry that we are not meeting your expectations. We have three designated areas Copperopolis, Rhapsody/Main Vein and High Point/ Loverly as our slow ski/ride trails. The rest of the mountain is open for people to Ski or Ride at whatever level they are capable of handling. We are concerned about densities, speed and mixing types in our slow areas. If you can give more detail on what you do not like I will be happy to respond to you. You can call me directly at (970)968-xxxx.

Jim Spenst
Vice President of Operations

i'm suprised someone actually responded. didn't really address my concerns though (mainly the happenings of this thread...)