Surfing/Skiing comparison

[Brocktoon]

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...hlight=elitism

This post is in response to BlurredElevens request for more discussion on a comparison between Surfing and Skiing. Check out Odin's thread above for a good discussion on "elitism" in skiing.

OK, I intended to do a single post comparing the equipment, culture, thrill, learning curve, and other aspects of skiing and surfing. I started writing and before I'd exhausted everything I wanted to say about equipment, I'd produced a small thesis. As such, I stopped myself and decided to post what I've written and deliver my thoughts in a series of posts.

Surfing and skiing equipment have several similarities. There is a common confusion in both sports among the masses that board/ski length is the dispositive measurement. In surfing, length is but one component of the shape of a board. More important than length of the board is the interplay between the outline, foil, length, rocker, rail shape, length, width and thickness of the board. Outline is what it sounds like, the basic shape of the board as it would be revealed if you made a chalk outline of it on the sidewalk. Foil is the distribution of foam thickness from nose to tail. Rocker is the amount of curve along the length of the board (commonly called "nose-kick" or "tail-kick"). More rocker = more maneuverability/less speed; less rocker = less maneuverability/more speed. Rail shape is self-explanatory but its importance is commonly underestimated and misunderstood.

Until about a month ago, 90% of surfboards were made of polyurethane core manufactured by Clark Foam. Do a web search or check Marcus Sanders coverage of it on www.surfline.com if you are interested in the full saga; suffice to say Clark Foam abruptly closed its doors a month ago and put the surfboard industry into a tailspin. Committed surfers worldwide are all very anxious about the fall-out that this will cause. That said, I'm going to discuss surfboard manufacturing as it has been as long as I've been involved in the sport. Where it goes from here is a giant question mark.

Surfboards are a much more primitive technology than skis. This is the result of a confluence between a surf culture that resists change and a general lack of a financing for R&D in surfboard design and materials. Unlike skiing, where equipment manufacturers appear to be very significant financial forces within the industry, surf industry money is concentrated in soft-goods manufacturers (primarily the "big 3": Quiksilver, Billabong and Rip Curl).

In skiing, big manufacturers mass-produce models of skis and sell them to the public. While the top surfboard manufacturers style and market "models" and have streamlined their production methods with CAD and some sophisticated shaping machines that rough-shape the foam cores, surfboards are still largely manufactured by hand.

For my part, I love the handmade quality of surfboards. I am friends with the guy who shapes my surfboards and talk to him in detail about how I want my boards. He is a "ghost shaper" for Rusty Priesendorfer (a big-time shaper who also has a popular clothing label with an "R-Dot" logo). As such, I have direct access to a world class equipment manufacturer that builds equipment, to exacting standards, specifically for me. I get the equipment for the same price as "stock boards." It would be cool if skis had this quality. Imagine if you could go ski with Splat, have him watch you ski all day, then go have a beer with him and discuss the exact specifications of the Bro model ski he would have tailor made for you in two weeks.

Of course the benefit of ski manufacturing is that the equipment is much more sophisticated. The equipment is made of modern materials and the controls over the manufacturing process are much more exacting. For example, the flex pattern of skis is apparently very precise. Flex pattern is much more of a crap shoot with surfboards, due to irregularities in the foam core manufacturing process, the glassing process, and a less scientific understanding of its importance by the manufacturing community at large. As such, it's very difficult to replicate the "magic board."

Another big problem with surfing equipment is that you can't generally "demo" a surfboard. Each time you dole out the $300-$800 for a new board, you're rolling the dice. It's a very fine line between "too buoyant" and "not buoyant enough", between "too much rocker" and "not enough rocker" etc. This dynamic, and the generally scroungy budget of the average surfer, contributes significantly to the general state of inertia in surfboard design. Once you get your specs dialed, you're terrified to stray.

In the early nineties, surfing experienced a radical change. Led by Kelly Slater, the "newschool" style of radical surfing took over. All of a sudden, every surfer wanted to ride the thin, narrow, heavily-rockered potato chips that Slater and his disciples were using. The problem was, only Cinderella could wear those glass slippers. The average pro surfer is probably 5'7" and 140 pounds. If you are 5'11" and 185 pounds, you shouldn't be using the same equipment as the average pro. The entire surfing community failed to recognize this and, for a few years, while the performance level of elite surfers skyrocketed, the performance at the average beachbreak plummeted. Everyone was bogging, unable to generate speed, failing to make sections.

Breaking this trend was collective frustration and a massive design renaissance that brought back old designs from the 60s, 70s and 80s. This led to the advent of the "quiver" for the average surfer. Extra boards aren't just for pros who charge macking Waimea, they are also for the average chump who needs a groveller when the local reef isn't quite pumping, as well as a semi-gun to get into the set waves when the local big wave spot is macking.

So, why is this relevant a relevant post to a ski site? For one, I'm replying to BlurredElevens request. Also, I learn best through analogy and surfing is the closest thing to skiing in my life and I think a comparison of the two will help me learn. Finally, I'm interested in hearing the reaction from maggots who read what I've written and can apply the general principles I describe to skiing.

So, please, submit your replies to this post. What are your thoughts on ski design? What is the best way for me to get my equipment dialed? What kind of ski-quiver should I look at to be able to approach the whole mountain and the range of conditions I'll find on the mountain? What are the limitations and advantages of ski design? Obviously, if you are a skier who is starting to surf and want any input at all, throw that in as well.

[Owens Never Sleeps]

Nice.

There was a nice big wave / big mountain comparison in the TGR surf film, Gondwana.

You can check it out here:

Quicktime: http://tgrmedia.com/tgrclips/paralellsfastqt.htm

Window Media: http://tgrmedia.com/tgrclips/paralellsfastwm.htm

"Some days are real friendly and it's easy to ride, other days it's a monster and it's angry and it needs blood..."

[hop]

hehe... SuPu and I discussed this very topic while driving back from KW.

My opinion on the matter after spending a few years surfing and over 10 skiing is that surfing is waaaaaaay more interesting than skiing any way you slice it.

Skiing is predominantly a winter sport, whereas surfing can be done year-round w/o much travel (assuming you live near the ocean).
Skiing requires a shitload of gear which is $$$$$$$$$$, surfing requires a few things in cold water, and even less in warm water.
Skier girls wear lots of clothes which can be very sexy. Surfer girls wear very little. Girl in bikini is obviously good, but girl in form fitting wetsuit is almost equally good.
Skiing costs a lot (from environmental damage of resorts to lift passes) to do, and it's unrealistic to think you can really learn how to ski in the BC. You can end up there, but you can't really start there. Waves are free.
In regards to a resort experience, it's easy for a beginner skier to access something that's way over their head and get fucked up. With surfing, you won't be able to paddle out if it's over your head (figuratively). Also, most people feel more comfortable on snow than in the water.
Skiing is easy to learn: you fall down and stand right back up, and just get on the lift to do it again. Surfing is much more difficult because you need the waves and the swell and the tides and wind... all the environmental factors have to come into play, and then you have to catch a wave and stand up and do your stuff. If you botch, you have to paddle back out and wait for the next chance.

There's more, but don't feel like re-writing your thesis. I guess the end result for me is that if I could trade every ounce of skiing ability for surfing ability and be stuck skiing at the current level of surfing, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


Edit: If you're looking to start skiing, I'm guessing you're going to be learning at a ski area. I'd say go for some nice easy to ski mid-fat that's not too long and go for it. You want your first skis to be the equivalent of some super easy Softop or something...forgiving and fun enough. You're not going to learn to surf on a gun, likewise you shouldn't learn to ski on some monster pow boards or race skis. Take a lesson or 3, and start out w/o bad habits. At this point in my surfing, there is no way I can tell the differences between similar boards, or fin setups, or any of that stuff, which means a custom-shaped board is somewhat wasted on me. I do know that I want a forgiving board that I don't have to work too hard to catch waves on and that will be relatively forgiving once I'm up. With skis it's an entirely different matter. I know exactly what I like and the little differences in shape and flex mean a lot, but that only comes with lots of time and experience. So for anyone learning, just get whatever you like and get after it, because time on the water or time on the hill is more important than what you're riding on.
All this being said...I'm going surfing.

[cj001f]

surfings skiing without chairlifts. Learning to ski was a different experience back then.

way more mountains and snow than surfbreaks; easier to get uncrowded terrain skiing. Snow is a less temporal medium. Less pollution/enviro problems skiing.

both populated by middle class white males.

[hop]

way more mountains and snow than surfbreaks; easier to get uncrowded terrain skiing. Snow is a less temporal medium. Less pollution/enviro problems skiing.

If you're coming from a beginner skier mentality, I'm not sure I agree with this.

Yeah, there's a lot of snow and mountain ranges out there, but how are you going to get there? And once you're there, you're not gonna have the skills to do it. There are a lot of uncrowded/undiscovered places to surf, but it takes $$$$$$$$$$$ to get there. Surfing private barrels in Micronesia is the equivalent of heli skiing in the Himalayas.

[cj001f]

If you're coming from a beginner skier mentality, I'm not sure I agree with this

way more good beginner ski hills (like something 100' tall with snow) next to the road without people than good beginner surfbreaks. The only skill those ski hills take is the ability to walk up. Same proportions hold for terrain of equivalent difficulty. It's just not what most people conceive of skiing as anymore. Uncrowded surfing isn't as $ as people think, but it requires more creativity than finding uncrowded skiing.

[Superstar Punani]

Been a surfer since 11, and a skier since 18. Here's the similarities and differences....

Similarities....

- Both have a bullshit learning curve. You have to put in a lot of time and effort and it will take you years to get somewhat good at it.

- Both are lifestyles. You can spend your life travelling the planet in pursuit of either...or both. If you decide to do both then you'll need to live in a place that will let you do both in a world-class setting. Even then there will be trade-offs between the quality of one vs. the other. Over the past 20 years I've lived in Sydney, SF, Tahoe, LA, then SF again. Oz had insane surf, and is a short, cheap flight away from Indo, but the skiing was shit. CA has Tahoe, but shittier waves than Oz.

I know there are other cities out there where you can go surf or ski- NYC, Vancouver, Portland, Tokyo, Auckland and Seattle come to mind but the key is "easy access" to "good" snow/waves.

My personal criteria- Big metropolitan city no more than 30 minutes from the Pacific Ocean, and no more than a 6 hour drive to get pow.


Differences

- Skiing can be learned at a later time in life, whereas if you weren't surfing by puberty then you'd probably be stuck in intermediocrity (not that there's anything wrong with that).

- You can be a good skier and live far from the mountains. I've yet to meet a good surfer who lives far from the beach.

- Good surf is reliant on a shitload of factors: Tide, swell size, swell direction, spot, wind, crowds, local vibe. All these need to come together, and when they do you get what you can- it may not be there tomorrow, or a few hours later.

With pow all you need is a dump and you're ready to play. Over my life the ratio is about 10 insane powder days to 1 insane surf day. That being said, any surf trip trumps any ski trip.

- Local vibe- surfers are inherently selfish and territorial creatures competing for waves. Unlike skiing, you can always hike to your stash. If you go anywhere hassled/crowded/localized (read: North Shore / Westside Oahu, Steamer Lame, Superbank) you're gonna keep a low profile and "ease" your way into the crowd before you start picking off the good ones. Whereas in skiing you can pretty much go to the best places (Cham, Alta, W-B, Tahoe) and ski wherever the fuck you want, make friends with the locals and ski with them.

- Cheap thrills- If the surf is flat/small/mushy/crap it's gonna suck. Sure you can have fun, but nothing will get the adrenaline juices flowing. With skiing you can go out on a shitty icy day with no snow, and still get your cock rocked (Think following 666 on Ooops after it hasn't snowed for a month, or straightlining the Wall to Buckboard when it's been winch-groomed)

- Expenses- All you need is a board and maybe a wetsuit and you're set to go. Skiing required a snow-capable car, a pass/ticket, and a shitload of gear.


All this being sprayed, I can't pick just one. I must have both for a happy existence. But given a choice between a day of bottomless blower pow, or a day of mindblowing barrels I'd take the green room over the white room.

[hop]

- You can be a good skier and live far from the mountains. I've yet to meet a good surfer who lives far from the beach.

Gerry Lopez lives in Bend, OR. Why, I dunno. But he counts as a good surfer far from a beach.

I guess if you count little hills on the side of the road as ski terrain I see your point cj001f.

[Superstar Punani]

Gerry Lopez lives in Bend, OR. Why, I dunno. But he counts as a good surfer far from a beach.

Hey that's Vince Mo'oloka!

I read that he discovered snowboarding at a later age, and that was close to big-wave surfing for him.

[hop]

I guess I could add that at this point in my surfing, the rush I get from dropping into a wave pretty much equals the rush I get from jumping off cliffs that are 10x bigger.

But if I could really swap out one set of skill for another, I'd swap everything for the ability to shred a guitar and a bass with a good band.

[cj001f]

I guess if you count little hills on the side of the road as ski terrain I see your point cj001f.

anything you can ski is ski terrain. Anything you wave you can surf is surf terrain. "skiing" just seems to be thought of by many as requiring a resort or extensive touring gear when all you need are skis boots and something to attach one to the other.

[Rusty Nails]

Also always seems to be a grass is always greener argument. Pro athletes want to be rock or movie stars, stars want to athletes, etc... People are also always looking for new challenges.

Life on the N. Shore should be sweet. Looking forward to learning how to surf! Hop, I will try to keep some couch space open for ya.

Rusty

[LeeLau]

When i had the major surf windsurf bug bigtime I thought of moving to Portland. I surfed till it got windy then I would windsurf. If there was no surf then I would bike. I looked at school in Lewis and Clark but I knew I would never take classes seriously as I'd be too close to Hood River, the Oregon Coast, bike trails and skiing.

Now Im in no surf - no windsurf Vancouver and just bike and ski - a lot. I used to whitewater kayak and surf-kayak but even that gets tedious in Vancouver.

My one regret is not learning to surf when I lived in Malaysia but back then it was a rich white man's sport ; not for poor natives. All my surfing was in Vancouver island, Oregon Coast, some WA coast and a nice 2 month Baja trip.

This might be controversial but a tele turn in powder for me duplicates the feeling of dropping in and carving a nice fat wave. Not even an alpine turn does it

Can't really add anything to what Punani said; its obvious from what he said that he understands the vibe and what makes it tick

[schindlerpiste]

My personal criteria- Big metropolitan city no more than 30 minutes from the Pacific Ocean, and no more than a 6 hour drive to get pow.

I'm not a surfer, and it's not the Pacific Ocean, but I have heard that Biarritz, France has some fine surfing. ...We all know that it is not all that far from some of the best skiing on this planet.

[Superstar Punani]

I'm not a surfer, and it's not the Pacific Ocean, but I have heard that Biarritz, France has some fine surfing. ...We all know that it is not all that far from some of the best skiing on this planet.

But it's in France.

[Brocktoon]

Differences

- Skiing can be learned at a later time in life, whereas if you weren't surfing by puberty then you'd probably be stuck in intermediocrity (not that there's anything wrong with that).

- You can be a good skier and live far from the mountains. I've yet to meet a good surfer who lives far from the beach.

SP-

I've noticed these things as well and wonder what to attribute them to. I was watching the ski movie "Hit List" and Cody Townsend's section starts with him surfing a little right and talking about living 30 seconds from the beach on the WS of Santa Cruz. For a guy who completely destroys the mountain in the following scene, I was a little underwhelmed by his surfing.

I think it takes a lot longer to learn to surf well than ski well for two reasons:

(1) The amount of time spent actually standing on the board in a given surf session is a lot less than the time standing on skis for an equivalent amount of time skiing. There is much more hassle with surfing. Paddling out, waiting for the waves, hassling with other surfers to get on a wave, and then going from the prone to standing on a wobbly piece of foam in a turbulent medium. With skiing, you snap in, hop off the chair and point 'em down.

(2) Once you are standing, the wave is moving! Apart from having to contend with learning to balance on the strange new contraption, you have to do so on a wave that is in motion beneath you, behaving in manners that will remain very strange and unpredictable until you've logged significant water time. Also, you're just scrounging for a wave, ANY wave when you start. Contrast that with skiing where you can begin on a bunny slope, then move progressively toward more challenging terrain and pretty much know exactly what you're getting into. You can control that to a degree in surfing by deciding where you paddle out, but you never know what that wave is going to do once it breaks.

[shirk]

Great thread.

My surf time is limited to one 4 hour lession in HuntingBeach last January. It was also the first time I had ever swam in saltwater. I wouldn't call it fun, more like a beatdown in a washing machine. That said I will be getting a board this summer and hitting the Vancouver island to learn.

u know my kook steeze



There was a great column in Bike mag a couple months ago comparing surfing to mountainbiking. Basically how crappy riding would be if it was as dependamnt on all the conditions as surfing. A good read for bikers.

[Brocktoon]

If you're coming from a beginner skier mentality, I'm not sure I agree with this.

Yeah, there's a lot of snow and mountain ranges out there, but how are you going to get there? And once you're there, you're not gonna have the skills to do it. There are a lot of uncrowded/undiscovered places to surf, but it takes $$$$$$$$$$$ to get there. Surfing private barrels in Micronesia is the equivalent of heli skiing in the Himalayas.

way more good beginner ski hills (like something 100' tall with snow) next to the road without people than good beginner surfbreaks. The only skill those ski hills take is the ability to walk up. Same proportions hold for terrain of equivalent difficulty. It's just not what most people conceive of skiing as anymore. Uncrowded surfing isn't as $ as people think, but it requires more creativity than finding uncrowded skiing.

I gotta side with CJ on this one. I've done a fair amount of travelling for surf and it's so damn fickle, even highly rated destinations.

On the other hand, maybe you become a pickier eater when you become a connoisseur of the goods. It's kind of hard to disappoint me in the snow right now (though Wintergreen, VA tries). I've a lot more attuned eye to the surf so the wind, tide, swell direction, bottom contour etc. can bum me out pretty quickly.

[the_eleven]

Being really good at both skiing and surfing probably means either a total skid lifestyle or trustafarianism.

One deep stand-up barrel, and the normal human being is hooked for life. Of course, one deep powder day at Alta will do that to you as well.

I have to agree with SuPu, though, good surf is more fun than good skiing.

Mind the addiction.

[RootSkier]

Cool thread. Where does this fit in with this discussion?

[addict]

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...hlight=elitism
The problem was, only Cinderella could wear those glass slippers. The average pro surfer is probably 5'7" and 140 pounds. If you are 5'11" and 185 pounds, you shouldn't be using the same equipment as the average pro. The entire surfing community failed to recognize this and, for a few years, while the performance level of elite surfers skyrocketed, the performance at the average beachbreak plummeted. Everyone was bogging, unable to generate speed, failing to make sections.

haha! so true, I spent the late 90s seeking flat, fixed fin boards (still do) for the big waves of West Oz.

"Skier girls wear lots of clothes which can be very sexy. Surfer girls wear very little. Girl in bikini is obviously good, but girl in form fitting wetsuit is almost equally good. "

Not so true in the big waves of west oz: girls? where? Also not so true where I ski, but hey, there's always the bar in both instances.

"My opinion on the matter after spending a few years surfing and over 10 skiing is that surfing is waaaaaaay more interesting than skiing any way you slice it."

I've spent 15yrs skiing and 19yrs surfing, I prefer skiing a lot more. i'm a much better skier though. Same stoke as surfing, but more time spent feeling that stoke. Still, getting a funneling, tropical, double overhead barrel (assuming you make it ) can be as fun as stomping a 30fter. Nice thread, it's interesting to see what people think.

[addict]

But it's in France.

yeah, damn those french women are ugly and frigid.......

[schindlerpiste]

yeah, damn those french women are ugly and frigid.......

French women howl louder than any other women in the world!

[LeeLau]

White water paddling is much much easier to learn then surfing or windsurfing. I'd put ww kayaking right up there with skiing as far as ease of learning.

There's really not that much aggro attitude in ww paddling.

[addict]

French women howl louder than any other women in the world!

Hence my sarcasm