Am I wrong to be pissed?

[Chainsaw_Willie]

It's not like I'm steaming mad. Maybe highly irritated or very annoyed or fairly upset would be better.

You see, I took my step-brother to Crystal today on his first ski trip since returning from Iraq with the 1st Marines. Not only that, it was his first time ever skiing at Crystal. I paid for his rental of a pair of Salomon Guns thinking they'd be similar flexiness to his ancient Dynastar Carbon straight sticks but much better in all the pow we were sure to find. I bought him lunch, paid for gas, etc. etc. all in an attempt to show a good guy a good time.

Now, we had a pretty decent time, but with REx, 6, and the Valley closed we were stuck threading between all the kiddies and gapers on Forest Queen all day. They had no problem at the ticket window bending us over and extracting a full price lift ticket, but when the winds stopped blowing at 11:30 in the freaking morning, only 2-1/2 hours after opening, they said the upper mountain would be closed for the day.

What's up with that? All day long I'm looking up and seeing Iceberg Gulch and Sunny side calling to me and the only way to hit them would've been to climb, and I know the south faces of Powder and Snorting Elk Bowls would've been nothing but frosty refreshment.

Why didn't they open the upper mountain when the winds died down early in the day? Why do they stick us for full price when the best terrain on the mountain, and over half the mountain for that matter, is inaccessible? Don't you think if they're going to make us pay full price they should do everything in their power to get the upper mountain open the instant the winds die down, even if there had only been two hours of the day left rather than 5? Does this make anyone else upset or am I just a whining ninny?

Hmmm, maybe I should edit that last sentence...

Of course, I did ski all day, and did find some nice snow back in the Bear Pit, did knock back a couple cold ones at the Elk, and did come home with that tired but good feeling in the legs. So it was definitely better than working. Or sleeping. Or a poke in the eye with a flaming stick. Hell, it was skiing on fresh snow with a good friend so it was pretty damn good after all, but it could've been so much better...

[JR]

Bummer. That is why I don't ski resorts anymore. I invested in a couple of nice sleds instead. In the end, it is way more expensive but fuck it, I go where I want when I want. Not for everyone mind you. I live about 10 minutes from some amazing touring so it works for me.

[The AD]

That kind of thing is always frustrating, but I'm sure opening terrain isn't always as easy as firing the lifts up. If the wind was blowing hard and there was new snow maybe there was the possiblility of unsafe conditions up top? If it was too windy for the lifts to run don't forget that also means it would be difficult to get patrol up top to check things out or bomb in the morning if needed.

I'm a JONG that knows nothing about ski area operations, but it just seems to me getting a large ski area open after a storm isn't trivial.

[bdog]

I understand the frustration and as I don't work for Xtal and wasn't there I only have opinions. However, and as much as I am usually in opposition to Ski area management thinking one needs to consider this:
The area has crews for each lift. When they determine that a certain lift or lifts are not going to run on a given day they normally release the crews. So, when the winds died down there may have been no crews to run REX and chair 6 etc. Also, if they could not open them until late in the day, even if they did have crews it may have been closing before patrol could effectively control the terrain.
Just some thoughts to consider.

[Dr. Crash]

The upsetting thing is to pay $50 for so little terrain. Crystal could at least give people a voucher worth something on their next lift ticket. Of course, considering how great their customer service was for last year's no snow year, one is not expecting much... And they probably want to keep as much $ as possible to finance their expansion.

Does anybody know what happens when the lifties are released? Do they still get paid or are they SOL like the ski instructors who only get paid when they work? I'm just curious.

It'd be interesting to know if the upper mountain is closed, or if the lifts are closed. As in: if you started to skin up towards the stop during such a closure, would patrol stop you?

drC

[Lloyd Braun]

you have no right to complain about it!

sorry! and 50 bucks for a lift ticket is cheap, so you are getting what you pay for!

[Chainsaw_Willie]

I have no right to complain? Hmmm, seems this is America and complaining would be protected under the 1st amendment. Now, whether the complaining has merit or is just a bunch of hot air is another matter.

So, just because $50 is cheap ("cheap" relative to what?), that means I don't deserve to ski the entire ski area? Just exactly how much would I have to pay before I'd be "getting what I paid for" and who would determine that? Seems the ski area thinks $50 is the right price to pay on a day when everything's open, so why do they still charge that much when over half of the mountain is closed?

What would you say if you went to a nice restaurant and ordered a 4 course meal but were only given the salad and dessert because the head chef took the day off yet were charged full price? Would you complain about that? What would you think if someone told you that the price was cheap for such a meal so you only got what you paid for?

drC, I spotted several people climbing Iceberg gulch. I wasn't the only one, several people riding the lift with me saw them and were talking about it too. Whether the patrol went after them or not I couldn't say. I have to admit it was tempting but with no good way to carry my skis it would've been a lot of work.

And you're right - a simple voucher for $10 or $15 off the price of your next lift ticket would go a long ways towards improving public relations and silencing people like me.

[bdog]

The upsetting thing is to pay $50 for so little terrain. Crystal could at least give people a voucher worth something on their next lift ticket. Of course, considering how great their customer service was for last year's no snow year, one is not expecting much... And they probably want to keep as much $ as possible to finance their expansion.

Does anybody know what happens when the lifties are released? Do they still get paid or are they SOL like the ski instructors who only get paid when they work? I'm just curious.

It'd be interesting to know if the upper mountain is closed, or if the lifts are closed. As in: if you started to skin up towards the stop during such a closure, would patrol stop you?

drC

In my experience once lifties are released they are off the payroll for the day. The point is to save the area money in labor dollars. ski areas seem to always want to cut the minimum wage person. Go figure. Crystal is on public land (FS) so you should be able to hike when the upper mountain is closed. Still, it would be quite advisable to determine WHY there is a closure so you don't create and get caught in a slide. With lifts not running it could take some time to organize a rescue and get patrol and SAR in place.

Yes, I think you have a right to be pissed off. It seems completely reasonable to expect a voucher or a discount when weather or conditions reduce the amount of available terrain. I doubt you will ever see that happen though, but it would be nice. Mt Bachelor is infamous for charging full price for one or two lifts and lower mountain only.

[Lloyd Braun]

I have no right to complain? Hmmm, seems this is America and complaining would be protected under the 1st amendment. Now, whether the complaining has merit or is just a bunch of hot air is another matter.

okay, you can complain and be protected under the 1st ammendment. now go be comfortable and let the hot air fly

So, just because $50 is cheap ("cheap" relative to what?), that means I don't deserve to ski the entire ski area? Just exactly how much would I have to pay before I'd be "getting what I paid for" and who would determine that? Seems the ski area thinks $50 is the right price to pay on a day when everything's open, so why do they still charge that much when over half of the mountain is closed?

You as a skier need to be aware of the weather and changing conditions, maybe on a windy or heavy snow day you should go somewhere else. EXPECT there to be lift closures. Once they close i would think the patrol sweeps the area which means all employees are gone for good. Would you come back to work? It is a way for the mountain to increase margin, not good business IMO but the norm.

What would you say if you went to a nice restaurant and ordered a 4 course meal but were only given the salad and dessert because the head chef took the day off yet were charged full price? Would you complain about that? What would you think if someone told you that the price was cheap for such a meal so you only got what you paid for?

I would complain, unless there were 40mph winds blowing through the kitchen.

drC, I spotted several people climbing Iceberg gulch. I wasn't the only one, several people riding the lift with me saw them and were talking about it too. Whether the patrol went after them or not I couldn't say. I have to admit it was tempting but with no good way to carry my skis it would've been a lot of work.

howabout carrying them over your shoulder! and unlike the other post even if it is on FS land, that land is leased by the ski area and Closed is Closed. Besides if you set a slide above a ski area in a closed area, that ran into the area and killed someone you would be responsible

And you're right - a simple voucher for $10 or $15 off the price of your next lift ticket would go a long ways towards improving public relations and silencing people like me.

again, i will not dissagree! this will probably never happen and YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER!

[whatcomridaz]

first problem if you were looking for good skiing why did you bother going to Crystal?

[bdog]

first problem if you were looking for good skiing why did you bother going to Crystal?

Right! Crystal sucks. Please don't ski there. Really.

[whatcomridaz]

No problem, can't really see a point in it, Rode there again today bored out of my mind, yes there are a few steeps but nothing technical enough to merit another trip. Funnest line of the day was twat shot and all that did was grind my base down more.

[yentna]

liftie released - liftie unpaid

[ccwaskier]

I don't think you are allowed to hike areas at crystal when they are closed or on windhold. If i remember correctly this became an issue a few years back when some guys hiked exterminator during a windhold and one was killed in a slide. After that incident they put up new signs prohibiting hiking terrain when the lifts are closed. I dont' know if the signs are still around.

Here is the link to the avi report:

http://www.avalanche.org/proc-show.php3?OID=17252

So as many people have said, its sometimes harder to open the mountain than you think.

I will also say that thanks to the closing yesterday, crystal was very nice today.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Lloyd, I always check the weather reports before heading up. Learned that lesson very painfully many years ago when I got trapped at Stevens for eight hours during a total whiteout blizzard. There was a winter storm warning in effect and I didn't check before heading up. Avalanches on both East and West sides of the pass closed the highway so you couldn't leave the parking lot and of course you couldn't ski either. I was young and even more poor than I am now, so couldn't even hang out in the bar.

The forecast for Sunday according to NOAA, which I read from their website both the night before and that morning, was for breezy conditions, 15-25 mph winds only and that front not rolling in 'til the afternoon. The morning hours were predicted to be mostly cloudy with a chance of snow showers so it was a bit of a surprise when I arrived and it was snowing pretty hard. Strong winds weren't really evident in the parking lot and base area but I could see snow blowing off one of the ridges above which did concern me. At the lift ticket window they said they "might" close the upper mountain, a real deception as they'd never actually opened it. We arrived at the base of the Rainier Express chair around 9:30 and it was closed, they were still digging it out at the on-ramp and the patroller there said they were going to open it if they could.

If the forecast had called for 30-40 mph winds in the morning, Id've gone Saturday instead, which was less convenient for me but doable.

What I didn't know and several people have pointed out is that once the decision is made to close the chairs the lifties are gone. That explains much, thanks for the edumacation. Still, the area opens at 9 and the winds had died down by 11:30. Too bad they couldn't have waited it out 'til noon, they could have had the upper mountain open in the afternoon.

As far as whether I should know better or not, Stevens issued a voucher for a discount on future lift tickets that day I got stuck up there. That was quite a few years ago though, don't know if they'd still do it or not. It's just good public relations, but I guess the ski areas have enough of a monopoly on our business that they don't need to worry about it.

whatcomridaz and bdog - you two are about as convincing as a used car salesman.

ccwaskier - they even rubbed that fact in on their website today! Man, I wish I could've gone again. Oh well, here's hoping next weekend will be good.

[Sundancer]

It is total bull shit. They will gladly take your money, but your fucked either way.

[Lynx]

kind of like airlines only paying for a hotel room if you missed a connecting flight due to mechanical problems but not for weather delays.

[Bunion 2020]

FWIW this is Boyne you are talking about.

Policy at Big Sky is keep crews on the clock until 13:00, if the lift can't run by then, cut em loose.

A voucher wouldn't have been out of line as some sort of compensation.

Nice of you to treat the Veteran. Good on ya.

[epic]

Did your friend habve more fun than if he had been in say, Fallujah? If so, I don't see a problem.

[Squatch]

Regarding whether you should complain, whether Crystal should give you a voucher, etc.: You are both free individuals, both you and the company that manages Crystal, and you can essentially do what you like. Crystal chooses to manage its business like any other private enterprise does, and so the choice is up to them whether they give a discount or a voucher. However, that doesn't mean you're out of options. Depending on their decision, you can a)take you and your money elsewhere, and b)inform others of your experience. So you can say on the internet that stevens did a good job taking care of you, but crystal did not. Basically this is word-of-mouth advertising, and smart companies realize that it means a lot.

Basically, what Crystal implied when they didn't give you a discount was that it was a better business practice to not give you a discount. However, if you complain/tell all your friends, they may change their mind and view the money that they give up as being less than the money they'll lose when people choose not to go there.

Nobody is required to do anything in this case. But this is a free country, so by all means, inform Crystal. You'll probably get something out of it, if only the explanation that they were doing the best that they could.

[connersw]

Sounds exactly like Mt Hood Meadows and that is exactly why I don't ski there anymore. Last year was the final straw. After a couple years out here, I had come to expect Cascade being closed more than it's open. When they spent millions of dollars to put in "The Lift To No Where" (aka Vista) rather than spending the money on fixing the run out of Heather Canyon, I thought it was rather odd. However, they justified it by saying "you'll be able to access more terrain when Cascade can't turn." BS. Over 90% of the time Cascade is closed, so is Vista.

So on a blue bird day last spring, after suffering through one of the worst winters in PNW history, Cascade is still closed at 11:00. My conversation with patrol went something like this.

Me: When is Cascade going to open?
Patrol: Once it's ready.
Me: It's already 11:00, why isn't it ready now?
Patrol: Cause it takes time, man.
Me: How long? Why weren't you out here at 4:00 or 5:00 to get it ready?
Patrol: Psstt, you don't get it, man.
Me: No, I do get it. I used to work patrol. Why don't you get the mountain ready before guests get here?
Patrol: If you don't like it, go ski some place else.
Me: Nice customer service, go fuck yourself.

So, I took my money, and I bought my season pass at Bachelor this year.

[bdog]

So, I took my money, and I bought my season pass at Bachelor this year.

Oh you're going to LOVE Bachelor for customer service!!!! They too will charge full price and open one or two lifts! Oh, and like many area's Bachy does little for the Pass holder once they get your $. Still, not a bad place to ski most days .. just don't expect much from the area management.

[bdog]

whatcomridaz and bdog - you two are about as convincing as a used car salesman.

ccwaskier -

No, I mean it .. whatcomridaz should never go to Xtal! It sucks so bad he skied there again Please ... don't ski there

[Buster Highmen]

You'd only be wrong if you didn't use your anger to at least try to change the situation.

[connersw]

Oh you're going to LOVE Bachelor for customer service!!!! They too will charge full price and open one or two lifts! Oh, and like many area's Bachy does little for the Pass holder once they get your $. Still, not a bad place to ski most days .. just don't expect much from the area management.

I used to take 2-3 trips a year down there before anyway, and they've actually treated me pretty well. They gave me a voucher once after I took a couple of laps, and it was pretty socked in. Given how most resorts around the PNW get that way pretty often, I didn't even think to ask, but my buddy went to the ticket window and they gave us a free tickets to use within the week. I was shocked. I guess I'll see if their friendly service changes now that they've got me locked in with a season pass.