Why don't club fields exist in the States?

[skiHOG]

JONG me all you want, but i don't give a crap. Lots of countries do this and they are really neat places to go. I think it would be quite an easy thing to do here.

[mtnfreak]

Seriously, its about liability insurance. My experience is with club fields in New Zealand, where "assumed risk" has a much broader interpretation than here in the States. There were a couple of club hills where I live until the late 1990's, when insurance premiums reached such a rate that the clubs couldn't justify them.

[iceman]

JONG me all you want, but i don't give a crap.

Needlessly agressive and self-defensive. -1 point

Lots of countries do this and they are really neat places to go.

+1 point for positive attitude. -1 point for use of "neat"[/quote]

I think it would be quite an easy thing to do here.

-5 points for general cluelessness. cf. Siverton, etc.

SCORE: -6

[smmokan]

"-5 points for general cluelessness. cf. Siverton, etc.

SCORE: -6"

Mispelling "Silverton" while criticizing another user's post: -10 pts.

[iceman]

Harping on obvious typos and other typical unfunniness: -1 billion and I fart in your general direction.

[Telenater]

"-5 points for general cluelessness. cf. Siverton, etc.

SCORE: -6"

Mispelling "Silverton" while criticizing another user's post: -10 pts.

And, the game goes to Lloyd who wins from the sidelines.

edit: and chalk me up in the losing column too.

[Ubersheist]

There are some "club fields" here and there in the US. Not many at all, and they tend to be very small and/or very exclusive (either very expensive or very low budget but not very open to new members). The two that I can think of off hand in California have a rope tow each that accesses very tame, nearly horizontal terrain, and only a few hundred vertical. They're both very family oriented and member oriented.

The big difference is how I think most of them are set up. As an example, I remember reading an article on one of them where they described a spring day - the family's mother set up a lunch while some of the kids played in the snow, and the teenaged son and dad attempted to repair the rope tow's engine. In addition, the article described how the members were expected to help maintain the slopes during the off season, too.

There's prolly some better ones out there, but they can't be all that good if no one here on the board has heard about them (except for the Yellowstone Club, that is).

[iceman]

And, the game goes to Lloyd who wins from the sidelines.

Mais non, M. Nate. Pas encore.

Siding with a loser: -32.333 (repeating of course).

[KillingCokes]

Windham ski area in NY used to be a private club back in the 70s. I can't think of any in colorado.

[Spats]

The reason public club sports don't generally exist in the USA is liability.

In the USA, people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, lawyers are willing to bring meritless lawsuits, judges are unwilling to throw meritless lawsuits out of court, and, most importantly, juries are willing to give out negligence verdicts. It can't possibly be that you broke your leg because your judgment lapsed -- it's got to be someone's *fault*.

Even the threat of a lawsuit is enough to destroy the budget of most club activities. It takes a minimum of $15,000 to defend yourself in Superior Court, and that's for an open-and-shut case. Good lawyers can drag it out forever and cost you six figures.

For practical purposes, this means you need liability insurance to do anything -- and if you're on state or federal land, the government will require you to have it. Due to the problems above, this insurance usually exceeds the cost of the club activity itself.

The only club ski hill I know about is a private hill in the Midwest. It's members (and their guests) only, and is basically a winter country club.

A great example is Sand Hill Ranch, a local motorcycle and mountain bike track on private land, which is being sued by a dipshit that rode on a closed track and crashed into the water truck, parked in plain view in the middle of the track. Or the dirt jumps at Calabazas Park...a kid came up short and paralyzed himself, and though he accepts responsibility, his father is suing the city for allowing dirt jumps to exist.

[MTUPublicEnemy]

I know of two private clubs in Wisconsin- Ausblick and Holy Hill. Both offer subpar (even by Wisconsin standards) terrain and cost around $1000 to belong to. The question is less why not, but why bother?

[Tectonically_Neglected]

The reason public club sports don't generally exist in the USA is liability.

In the USA, people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, lawyers are willing to bring meritless lawsuits, judges are unwilling to throw meritless lawsuits out of court, and, most importantly, juries are willing to give out negligence verdicts. It can't possibly be that you broke your leg because your judgment lapsed -- it's got to be someone's *fault*.

Even the threat of a lawsuit is enough to destroy the budget of most club activities. It takes a minimum of $15,000 to defend yourself in Superior Court, and that's for an open-and-shut case. Good lawyers can drag it out forever and cost you six figures.

For practical purposes, this means you need liability insurance to do anything -- and if you're on state or federal land, the government will require you to have it. Due to the problems above, this insurance usually exceeds the cost of the club activity itself.

The only club ski hill I know about is a private hill in the Midwest. It's members (and their guests) only, and is basically a winter country club.

A great example is Sand Hill Ranch, a local motorcycle and mountain bike track on private land, which is being sued by a dipshit that rode on a closed track and crashed into the water truck, parked in plain view in the middle of the track. Or the dirt jumps at Calabazas Park...a kid came up short and paralyzed himself, and though he accepts responsibility, his father is suing the city for allowing dirt jumps to exist.

That is seriously fucked up...

[skiski]

Maybe if we had decent public health care people who fucked themselves up would feel less need find someone to sue.

But generally, I agree with Spats, insurance for something like a club field would be more reasonable if liability was cleanly cut off, making suits for skiing injuries and the like clearly frivolous and thus exposing anyone who brings one to the possibility of court sanctions and giving judges an easy way to cut the suits off quickly.

[ill-advised strategy]

what's that thing near jeremy ranch? isn't that some kinda clubby dealio over there?

[INDY GS]

There is a "club" ski area, in Michigan near gaylord, called the ostego club.

The Yellowstone Club, MT

There is at least one near Holiday Valley New York.

Liability is the main reason they don't exist in any major capacity.

If you you want a true downhome ski hill, check out -----> http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42153

I won't make you sign a waiver, pay dues, and I may even let you drink some of my beer.

[fridge]

I have heard of a few "select" clubs where women will take off their clothes for money. PM me for more details.

[pepperdawg]

Isnt there a private club/mtn just south of Killington in VT - Bear Creek, Bear Shit or something like that?

[itsjust123]

(repeating of course).

+5 points for the Leeroy Jenkins reference

[Snow Dog]

JONG me all you want, but i don't give a crap. Lots of countries do this and they are really neat places to go. I think it would be quite an easy thing to do here.

Besides insurance there's environmental assessments to do ($$$$), native land claims (in Canada), environmental groups opposed to any development, locals who sled and tour opposed to any development.

Plus there's lots of little places out there anyway. If you want a deal Hemlock Mountain (near Vancouver) closed last week.

[mashed_penguin]

Even in New Zealand compliance costs are increasing every year for club fields. They are one of the main reasons that Temple Basin was/is facing closure. Our insurance bill is well above 10k a year (for the university lodge). It may not seem like much compared to comercial fields but it is easily enough to put the place in trouble in a bad year.

Sadly every year seems to bring more bills to the table. Fingers crossed our nanny state government will get its act together and realise that it is killing outdoor clubs all over the country.

[Arty50]

Maybe if we had decent public health care people who fucked themselves up would feel less need find someone to sue.

That would be nice if people only sued for medical expenses.

"Larry H. Parker got me $2.1 million."

[Woodsy]

we have a saying in America that many live by:
"life ain't nothin but bitches and money"
not much in the way of either at a club field.

[shirk]

There are a whole bunch of private ski clubs in Collingwood Ontario. They are supper expensive to join. A couple of them actually sit on the best terrain. They have good racing programs. But they are the upper crust type establishments that cater to the wealthy.

[skea 457]

"life ain't nothin but bitches and money"
not much in the way of either at a club field.

Way too true.

Fundamentally I think it comes down to liability and insurance issues, but there are a couple more factors in our favour in NZ. The areas that get enough snow are all above the treeline so there is no need to clear forest. The areas with the best terrain here are all too geologically unstable for any type of lift other than nutcrackers. So here you step up to the club fields once you are bored with the resorts, instead of the US example of moving up from the family club hills up to the resorts.

I think with the growing popularity of fat skis and off-piste skiing and boarding in general the club fields are entering a bit of a renaissance here. But having said that there hasn't been a new club field set up for the last 40 or so years.

[girlfriday1080]

There are a whole bunch of private ski clubs in Collingwood Ontario. They are supper expensive to join. A couple of them actually sit on the best terrain. They have good racing programs. But they are the upper crust type establishments that cater to the wealthy.

When going to these clubs don't forget your picnic basket or you'll be frowned upon. Don't forget the freestyle programs in Ontario - only one public club has a team and it far surpasses these rich folk.