PSA: Fritschi explosion (and signs I could have prevented this)

[upallnight]

Hey all:
First off, I considered posting in Tech Talk, but I've seen other similar "PSA"-type announcements posted in this section as they apply more broadly.

Second, I'd like to state that I've been using various incarnations of the Fritschi Diamir/Freeride for at least 8 years -- happily, I might add.

Yesterday, at the end of a day at the resort, I was cruising (good pace but not balls-out) back to the car down a groomer when I apparently ejected from one ski and went flying. I tromped back up the hill only to find a ski minus a toepiece; the toepiece was another 25' uphill.

Inspection later revealed that it was not the plastic that failed but, rather, the metal screw that secures the plastic toecup to the rail. It simply broke in half. Half was embedded in the base and would be very difficult or impossibly to retrieve.

Now, I've heard stories of the plastic breaking on Fritschis (though I never encountered this myself in the 4 or 5 pairs I've owned/own), but I'd not ever heard of a metal part just completely breaking. All other parts of the binding (including the binding/ski interface) are intact.

I've got a call into BD warranty, so we'll see if there's anything that can be done -- although the binding itself did see good (but not extreme) use. I'd been on it about 20 days this season, and it was in the rotation for 3-4 seasons.

The real "PSA" part of this announcement is that, in retrospect, I should have realized this was about to fail. Here's how:

1) 2 days before, I noticed a little slop in one binding. I didn't think too much of it -- I cleaned some snow off the bottom of my boot and things were fine.

2) The day before, I noticed more slop, so I thought it was either a toe-height issue or a length issue -- I wondered if either had worked their way up (or back) just a little. I fixed one first, then the other. Things seemed fine. I checked about 15 minutes later and there was still a little play. "Did I forget to tighten things down all the way? Maybe..."

3) The day of the incident I rode inbounds all day -- pretty fast, mixed conditions, no big drops, nothing unusual. The binding failed in mid-turn on smooth terrain.

If you own a Fritschi (or any other binding, really) and notice some play (even just a few mm), be concerned and do a thorough check yourself (or at a shop).

I should have done a full check at home after fixing them in the field. A full check for me in the future will include pulling out that screw and re-setting it.

It could have just been metal fatigue. I don't think it is a Fritschi-specific issue (although the way that the one screw holds the whole toe together is definitely a Fritschi-thing).

I'm very fortunate that this did not happen in the trees, or in the midst of a high-speed turn down terrain with rocks/obstacles...or on something steep. In other words, it could have been far worse.

Hope this helps everyone to be a bit more aware and avoid injury.

Rumor has it that BD has no more parts for these (it's the Titanal II), and I'm SOL if I have to buy another binding at full retail. Since it was mounted on a pair of Explosivs, I think that the healthy amount of metal in the ski will allow me to mount another Fritschi binding with the same hole pattern in the same spot.

Thanks, and be safe out there!
-e

[hop]

Bummer.

I eagerly await The Character's response.

[bbirtle]

Hey do you mean this screw pictured here?

Lately I can wiggle the whole toe plastic thing left and right it seems a lot more than it should go... is this the same problem you had? Maybe I should take it into the shop...

Thanks for the heads up and glad the failure didn't result in an accident.

[Endlessseason]

Yeah, glad this whole thing worked out safely for you. It was a good lesson for us all to learn. Thanks for being interested enough to figure out what exactly happened and to post it.

[upallnight]

Hey bbirtle --
Hard to tell from the photo you posted (it's a little fuzzy on my screen), but I'm referring to the screw that adjusts the toe height. If the ski/binding is flat on the ground and you are looking at it from directly overhead, this screw comes in directly from the top/perpendicular to the ski.

If you are noticing more wiggle in the toe (and it's enough that you are asking this question), I'd say you should be very concerned. By this, I mean you should be concerned enough to thoroughly check out the binding (not just tighten things down).

In retrospect, I would have at least removed that screw from the binding to inpsect it. Yes, it would be a minor pain to have to adjust everything again, but I might have seen a crack or something developing in the screw. I'm sure it would have at least felt a bit flimsy.

Worst case is you'll isolate the problem, or confirm that there really is no problem.

Again, I've owned Fritschis for many years (since version 1) and this is the first problem I've personally had. I'm still a fan, but it was a lesson for me to be careful when I notice any weird behavior in a binding.

-e

[Buzzworthy]

I have noticed something different on my Freerides, the red and black ones, last years.


I can slide the heel piece up and down the rail just by pushing on it about 2 mm. Boot is 317, but I can manually move it to 315 and back to 317.

Is this "play" normal?

Flykdog mentioned his heel slipped out on the moutain a good 10 mm.

Anyone got comments from experience?

[AltaPowderDaze]

I have noticed something different on my Freerides, the red and black ones, last years.


I can slide the heel piece up and down the rail just by pushing on it about 2 mm. Boot is 317, but I can manually move it to 315 and back to 317.

Is this "play" normal?

Flykdog mentioned his heel slipped out on the moutain a good 10 mm.

Anyone got comments from experience?

you can do that with a binding that has 200 days on it but you shouldn't be able to do it with new ones. call bd warranty and ask them. they may just swap out the offending unit.

[Buzzworthy]

you can do that with a binding that has 200 days on it but you shouldn't be able to do it with new ones. call bd warranty and ask them. they may just swap out the offending unit.

yeah, like 12 days, and the offending unit is plural, they both do it the same

will call bd. thanks S.

[LeeLau]

On Fritschis the part that's vulnerable for us non-huckers is the toe-piece. The piece can be stressed when you;re in tour mode and you fall. The trick if you fall is to try to fall sideways and not ass-over-teakettle which can crack the toepiece.

The titanal bar; toepiece and heelpiece are at risk but usually for hucking.

On day tours I carry a spare toepiece (just the plastic part where the toe of the boot mounts) along with the screw for the height-adjustment and some spare torx screws for remounts. THe torx screws I have are a little longer just in case I have to remount due to pulling out old screws. It's not a lot to carry and takes up very little space.

I got my parts from the Canuck distributor; I know BD will also sell those.

Further to what the chinese character dude said in the previous bash-Fritschi thread (the FS Legend Pros and Freerides); us 170 lb non-hucker tourers can use Fritschis for a long time without there being significant wear and tear. 100+ days on Diarmir IIs and 20+ days on gray and yellow Freerides. FWIW my data is consistent with a sample of ski touring partners and from the Canuck distributor.

[Crinkle]

yeah, like 12 days, and the offending unit is plural, they both do it the same

will call bd. thanks S.

I think the unit is offended

[bbirtle]

OK seems like trouble. Thanks for the clarification - I was thinking of screwing a different screw. I'll have the shop give it a once-over when they mount my new skis next week. Thanks much for the info.

[upallnight]

Thanks, LeeLau:

What did you mean by: "...us 170 lb non-hucker tourers can use Fritschis for a long time without there being significant wear and tear. 100+ days on Diarmir IIs and 20+ days on gray and yellow Freerides. FWIW my data is consistent with a sample of ski touring partners and from the Canuck distributor."

Do you mean that 100+ days for Titanal II is possible for no wear (and only 20 is a long time for gray & yellow Freerides??)?

Carrying an extra toe piece and/or screw would not have helped me out, as the screw literally broke in half, and half remained in the lower part of the binding. The plastic toe piece is actually intact!

In the field, I would have had no way to get the lower half of the screw out. I'm thinking of taking it to a machine shop to see if they can pull that part of the screw. Then, if I have the right screw I can re-use the existing toe-piece.

Thank you. I can post photos if anyone is interested.

-e

[LeeLau]

Sorry upallnight. I meant that Im a 170lb non-hucker. I tour with friends around that kind of weight too. I don't drop big cliffs with touring bindings as I don't think they're designed for that. So just posting my experience with Fritschis

I've had 100+ days on the Diarmir II and 20+ days on my yellow-gray FRs with no issues or significant wear and tear. I know people in the same weight class with the gray-yellow FRs who've used them more then I have who also haven't had wear and tear issues

Too bad about the broken screw. Theres not a lot you can do other then be aware of that; I wouldn't be packing a dremel into the bc anytime soon so that's a good thing for you to do with this post

Thanks, LeeLau:

What did you mean by: "...us 170 lb non-hucker tourers can use Fritschis for a long time without there being significant wear and tear. 100+ days on Diarmir IIs and 20+ days on gray and yellow Freerides. FWIW my data is consistent with a sample of ski touring partners and from the Canuck distributor."

Do you mean that 100+ days for Titanal II is possible for no wear (and only 20 is a long time for gray & yellow Freerides??)?

Carrying an extra toe piece and/or screw would not have helped me out, as the screw literally broke in half, and half remained in the lower part of the binding. The plastic toe piece is actually intact!

In the field, I would have had no way to get the lower half of the screw out. I'm thinking of taking it to a machine shop to see if they can pull that part of the screw. Then, if I have the right screw I can re-use the existing toe-piece.

Thank you. I can post photos if anyone is interested.

-e

[bbirtle]

I guess there was a thread already about the bindings themselves - somebody mentioned 中文人 (中=Chinese 文=Character 人=Dude) had flamed about it. But FWIW I have now 190 days on my Diamar bindings - the grey/black/orange ones pictured above. I never had any problems up until a few weeks back... around that time I also started doing some fairly big air jumps in the terrain park and some smaller cliff/rock hops. Coincidence?

Grrr... too bad they can't make a binding that can take jumping abuse since now I'm wondering if I need to buy some "huck" skis with normal bindings, but then what do I do on a tour when I want to jump something?

Ahh the horrible dilemmas we face in this sport.

[hop]

I guess there was a thread already about the bindings themselves - somebody mentioned 中文人 (中=Chinese 文=Character 人=Dude) had flamed about it.

He'll probably be stoked to see this thread with all the techy descriptions of Freeride slop so he can just quote it and say "I told you so", when it's probably all new news to him anyways!

[粉末雪]

Ok I’ll give it a shot.
What sometimes happens is the post, the vertical screw which attaches the toe piece to the rail, gets bent. Initially this shows up as looseness, which will re-loosen after its been tightened down. The bend can be slight, but enough to cause problems.

I think what causes this bending is riding at the upper height range of toe piece. So if your boots have a tall vertical distance between the bottom of the boot sole and top of the boot’s toe piece (some touring boots are like this), then the toe piece is raised and post’s lever arm is lengthened, and therefore the post is at greater risk of bending. Your post screw may have been bent, and then ultimately failed. I’ve seen a few bent posts, and I think this is what causes it. To prevent this from happening, we’ve ground down the boot sole, or the top of the boot toe piece, so that the binding toe height setting was near the middle of its range.

Or, as has been the noted, maybe the toe piece just broke and fell off. It could have been the toe piece was cracked slightly before, then failed, and you sheared the post screw during the fall. Always check your toe pieces for cracks.



edit - for Hop, this is a different issue that the looseness mentioned in the other thread. So have we agreed to disagree yet?

[Core Shot]

Ok I’ll give it a shot.
What sometimes happens is the post, the vertical screw which attaches the toe piece to the rail, gets bent. Initially this shows up as looseness, which will re-loosen after its been tightened down. The bend can be slight, but enough to cause problems.

I think what causes this bending is riding at the upper height range of toe piece. So if your boots have a tall vertical distance between the bottom of the boot sole and top of the boot’s toe piece (some touring boots are like this), then the toe piece is raised and post’s lever arm is lengthened, and therefore the post is at greater risk of bending. Your post screw may have been bent, and then ultimately failed. I’ve seen a few bent posts, and I think this is what causes it. To prevent this from happening, we’ve ground down the boot sole, or the top of the boot toe piece, so that the binding toe height setting was near the middle of its range.

Or, as has been the noted, maybe the toe piece just broke and fell off. It could have been the toe piece was cracked slightly before, then failed, and you sheared the post screw during the fall. Always check your toe pieces for cracks.

WOW!
Thoughtful.
Inciteful.
Helpful.
Not inflammatory.

Excellent post, mister Powder Snow. Excellent.

[Tippster]

Really. First post in living memory that didn't shit on someone or something. Kudos!

[Trackhead]

My only advice...

[Buzzworthy]

I have a one track mind and I am Dynafit's bitch.

Better, much better.

[hop]

Ok I’ll give it a shot.
What sometimes happens is the post, the vertical screw which attaches the toe piece to the rail, gets bent. Initially this shows up as looseness, which will re-loosen after its been tightened down. The bend can be slight, but enough to cause problems.

I think what causes this bending is riding at the upper height range of toe piece. So if your boots have a tall vertical distance between the bottom of the boot sole and top of the boot’s toe piece (some touring boots are like this), then the toe piece is raised and post’s lever arm is lengthened, and therefore the post is at greater risk of bending. Your post screw may have been bent, and then ultimately failed. I’ve seen a few bent posts, and I think this is what causes it. To prevent this from happening, we’ve ground down the boot sole, or the top of the boot toe piece, so that the binding toe height setting was near the middle of its range.

Or, as has been the noted, maybe the toe piece just broke and fell off. It could have been the toe piece was cracked slightly before, then failed, and you sheared the post screw during the fall. Always check your toe pieces for cracks.



edit - for Hop, this is a different issue that the looseness mentioned in the other thread. So have we agreed to disagree yet?

Wow.... maybe you actually DO know something! Thanks for the explanation of this issue, and taking the first step in the right direction. Could you do the same for the looseness mentioned in the other thread? Please? Or explain to me where "there" is? Or what it takes to be a sponsored athlete?

[bbirtle]

粉末雪,
Awesome information, thanks much! Seems I shall have to do some investigative screwing. I mean screwdriving. (Is that a word?) Whatever I'm gonna check it out.

Cheers,
武雷庵

[dude_le_skibum]

My only advice...

igssh. i am not sure...

[upallnight]

Thanks, Trackhead--
I do ride Dynafits on my light-weight setups.... but when I'm in the resort (or heading out the gates), I need something a little burlier.

I do love skinning w/ the Dynafits, and their weight can't be beat. That said, I have had issues with the toe failing to lock (I think this was due to ice under the step in and/or in the boot holes) even in the "locked" position.

Would you ever put them on a ski that sees use at the resort?

I do have a spare pair of comforts mounted here. I'm trying to repair my Fritschis (extract the old screw and use a new one), but if that doesn't work I either have to cough up for a new Fritschi, mount the Dynafits, or consider a Naxo.

Thanks!

My only advice...

[upallnight]

Thanks "???"

What sometimes happens is the post, the vertical screw which attaches the toe piece to the rail, gets bent. Initially this shows up as looseness, which will re-loosen after its been tightened down. The bend can be slight, but enough to cause problems.

This could have been the case as it did initially show up as "looseness".

I think what causes this bending is riding at the upper height range of toe piece.

I'll check on this. For what it's worth, I was riding with my old Scarpa Denalis. They're definitely ground-down from wear. Not sure if they would be considered a "tall" boot from the perspective you described. The toe height adjuster did not appear to be toward the top of the range...but I could be mistaken.

Or, as has been the noted, maybe the toe piece just broke and fell off. It could have been the toe piece was cracked slightly before, then failed, and you sheared the post screw during the fall. Always check your toe pieces for cracks.

Definitely not the case in this instance, though it is a good point. The toe piece is totally intact - no cracks whatsoever.

I'm wondering if it got loose (vertically), then maybe that extra play was enabling me to exert tremendous leverage on the toe screw (by sitting back at the end of a turn to work the tail of my ski). I was on a groomer at the end of a day, finishing a turn. I wonder if that could have caused it, especially if the screw was weakened/-ening to begin with.

The screw does not appear bent, it does appear to have just snapped in 1/2. I'll know more once I pull the screw out of the lower half and can compare it with the screw in the upper part of the toe. From what I can see now, it looks pretty straight until the break.

Thank you for the insight and suggested things to consider/think about.

-e