Seattle Smoking Ban

[bcrider]

lol, typical 2 planker Socal BS.

dude, this is the second time you've referenced "2 plankers". please dont pull that stupid shit into this thread.

[James Carvile]

I believe this to be untrue, at least here in NYC. I don't know why it would be different in Boston. All the bars were whining about this beforehand, but most found business did not decline or improved (for some there may have been an initial drop).
Have to say it's much nicer now to go out without having to completely fumigate your clothes, and waking up the next morning without a pile of really smelly clothes in your room is a plus, too.
Kinda weird now when I'm somewhere smoking is allowed.
There are plenty of things you're not allowed to do in public places, I don't know why smoking should be different from, say, spitting.

And it's hard to believe that smoking for the smoker can be, without a doubt, very harmful, but standing all night in a room full of the same smoke would be OK. Simply because it's difficult to conclusively prove this doesn't mean workers (and patrons) should be exposed to it.
I like the Steve Martin line, in response to 'Mind if I smoke?'--'No, mind if I fart?'

Dex,
Your comment about the smoking ban not adversely effecting bar business in NYC is incorrect. I know your google search says that bars didn't closebut, industry studies found that business in the bars that were already open did go down by about 30%. Yes, the smoking ban did not cause the massive closing of bars that many opponents said would happen but it did hurt business. If you think about it, it's really easy to explain why there was a drop in business and that would be because when people are outside smoking they aren't inside drinking.

As a non smoker of cigarettes but a smoker of pot I enjoy the extra company outside of bars(especially the models) and the fact that my clothes don't smell like cigarettes the next day.

[backpack]

As to bar and restaurant revenues (people cite this all the time): Revenues appear about level overall after smoking bans. My take on this is that people who couldn't handle the smoke came back and people who couldn't live without it left. It's a wash. But if we as a Free and Democratic society allowed Private Establishments to enforce their own rules, overall revenues would most likely rise sharply, because people could make up their own damn minds and do what they want to do without some moron looking over their shoulders.

Just a quick question: since you say that it's a wash due to shifting clientele after the ban, and before the ban the "free market" practices you espouse were in place, why, exactly wouldn't allowing businesses to choose simply shift things again and make it a wash?

If the patrons want to split with a non smoking/smoking section or a bar for smokers, or a bar for non smokers then let them establish it instead of the government. This way the market responds to demand instead of arbitrary laws based on what people think is "right"

[spew]

Y'all ever heard of "Market Failures?"

Seriously, the general idea of a totally free market is nice, just like the general idea of a fully socialist state is pleasant, but neither works in reality.

Rampant industrial pollution is an example of a market failure. The government is, in fact, part of the market in a sense, because while individuals may not have much say directly in how mega-carcinogen-corporation-XYZ operates, as a whole they can elect people to correct the problematic discharges, in effect working through the "market" of politics to fix a failure of the business to assess and pay for its negative externalities of production.

This isn't to say that the market usually fails, but it CAN, and to use the popular terminology here: if we all act like little pussies that can't handle a little dose of economic reality, then we're all going to end up a bunch of sheep baaaing about the wonders of free market neoliberal economics while our children die of mysterious diseases and the family down the street starves to death.

Yea, yea... too many development economics classes this semester, I know. It just annoys the crap out of me to see the over-used "free market" slogan bandied about like it's some magic solution to all problems, which it isn't. It's certainly part of the solution in some situations, but it isn't as simple as it's being described. Sort of like the Kuznets curve and how everyone points to it as an example of how inequality in developing nations will eventually get better. Yet the data suggests that this is not happening, and instead of getting better when expected, inequality is staying the same or increasing.

Or how NGOs and governments stepped in to provide microlending since banks failed to offer such services. Now some banks realize they can make money while helping the poor save and invest, but it took a force outside the market to make that happen.

Another fun issue is free labor movement. In order to have a truly free market, labor should be able to move freely to where it is needed, unconstrained by political borders.

Oh, and I personally like the smoking bans, especially in Boston. Makes it much nicer to go out, since most bars chose to allow smoking before the ban. Hopefully Utah will go ahead and make it a total ban and do away with the "membership" crap.

[/spew]

[Art Shirk]

Well, I have been skiing all day and I just came back to find out how contentious this has become. Admittedly, I havent parsed through what I am sure are all amazingly insightful threads; however from what I have read, I haven't seen much comment on the eforceability issue. Hell, I have been apres skiing for the last 4 hours and I have had one argument with a bouncer, one with a fuckin lifty that still thinks his dick is for pissing with and one argument with my buddy. Enforceability calls for bright-lines in the law (i.e. one can only smoke outside, etc.--easy to interprete, easy to enforce, public is on notice). Thus, my bone is not about the laws intention (what most of the bickering on here is about), it is about its execution. Therein the latter is the problem, and why I will all but guarantee that some group, class, coalition will challenge this law. Purpose and spirit are fine and legitimate, the solution is shit. My little brother could have drafted a law that is more constitutionally resilient that this one with regard to the means not the end.

I am gonna hit the balcony now for a cig and scope the cascasdes, has any other seattlites been noticing them lately??? Holy shit, the clear air and all the snow makes them look unbelievable.

[element1]

dude, this is the second time you've referenced "2 plankers". please dont pull that stupid shit into this thread.

Well as a single planker from new mexico it's sort of a regional pastime to rip on 2 plankers and mormons, for the record I have many good friends who are both and really don't care about someones choice of ride, religion, etc... just having a little fun, not meaning anything serious. peace

[summit]

element, 99% of the people on this board apline/AT/tele ski. There are boarders here but not many. You are welcome to stay as long as you stop sitting in the middle of the trail and postholing the traverse/skin track, and hijacking threads, JONG.

------

I loathe the idea of .gov telling people what they can do with their bodies on private propery... but if it affects other people physically and monetarily (unbelievable healthcare costs). I still feel uneasy about the prospect. OTOH this is probably the only issue of the type whre I go against my concious. Here the ban means I will go to bars whereas before the ban they were smoke filled places I avoided.

[SEATTLE POLICE]

Thus, my bone is not about the laws intention (what most of the bickering on here is about), it is about its execution.

We'll be watching you, lawyer boy.

[FNG]

I knew this was going to be good when I saw SEATTLE POLICE. First of all, that was good stuff on the chemicals in campfires Snow Dog.

Well, glad to be here. When it hit four pages I figured I'd take a look. Your last point is interesting, and I actually can't remember what the NYC code says about this--I believe smoking is allowed at places that have a ventilated, outdoor area. And I know there are some smoking rooms (like for cigars) at some places (strip clubs come to mind). But most places can't just create space for something like that (space is pretty limited here), so whatever ban exists amounts to a full ban for most small places.

Space is rather limited here too except in the suburbs (which still allow smoking in bars) so I think I agree with you on that one.

There's an area here called The Rail Station that's two popular live music bars right next to each other next to a light rail stop. The two bars can't allow smoking inside, but they worked together and made the space between them into an outdoor smoking pavilion. When you need a smoke, you can step outside into the courtyard and burn one. There's a beer stand out there too so it's not like you're shut off while you're smoking. Cover is good for both bars, and the place is full on weekends and not bad on weeknight. This is the kind of setup I was thinking of.

Why not just let the bar owners and patrons decide what kind of bar they want, instead of legislating something regarding it.
If the patrons want to split with a non smoking/smoking section or a bar for smokers, or a bar for non smokers then let them establish it instead of the governement. This way the market responds to demand instead of arbitrary laws based on what people think is "right"

If that argument is to hold weight, you must also be in agreement that a bar owner can insulate with asbestos, use lead paint on the walls, serve under cooked pork, and have only one exit. And throw out all the sanitary laws for food preperation as well. Hey, it's personal choice right?

I think you missed the part where he said "and patrons".

That's an interesting idea 13. What about a limit on the number of licenses to keep an equal or proportionate distribution of smoking & non-smoking bars?

[Shepherd Wong]

Maybe state and local governments should offer some kind of tax incentive for bars that voluntarily go smoke free?

[grrrr]

Just a little clarification - it was not the "state" that created this law. It was an initiative of the people and it passed with 63% in favor.

[Art Shirk]

We'll be watching you, lawyer boy.

Hey guys. I will be at a popular bar in Seattle today drinking and smoking while watching the hawk game. Come and get some.

[coastal]

Hey guys. I will be at a popular bar in Seattle today drinking and smoking while watching the hawk game. Come and get some.

shouldn't be too hard to find him with those fucking glasses

[bcrider]

Hey guys. I will be at a popular bar in Seattle today drinking and smoking while watching the hawk game.

Doesn’t the PNW have one of the best early season snowpacks in years?

You’d rather sit in a smokey bar than go skiing???

[bcrider]

Here’s Sacramento’s thoughts on the Seattle smoking ban….

Kings 123
Supersonics 104

After loosing five straight it was nice to get a win on the road against the Superkooks…I mean Supersonics.

[bcrider]

Then you disagree with the ban as well.

I disagree that there can’t be a way to cater to both sides…there can be imho.

[cj001f]

(unbelievable healthcare costs)

Annual cost of smoking (health care, etc.) $72.7 billion in 1998
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkele...6/smoking.html
Annual cost of alcohol (health care, etc.) $148.0 billion in 1992
http://www.nida.nih.gov/EconomicCosts/Table1_3.html
The data is mixed years, yada, yada. I've yet to see any tabulation that shows the societal cost of alcohol is lower than the societal cost of smoking.

For drinking, smoking, helmets the cost to society is usually far easier to calculate than the benefit to society. Alcohol currently has a perceived benefit, smoking does not, but that may well change in the future - which is why I'd like to keep the precedence for self/peer monitoring and not state monitoring.

[Art Shirk]

Doesn’t the PNW have one of the best early season snowpacks in years?

You’d rather sit in a smokey bar than go skiing???

(1) skiied twice this week already;
(2) i have been watchin the hawks for a decade and have never had a good team, i am makin up for lost time.

[ill-advised strategy]

1 last thing: I hope next summer you pussies that can't stand to walk through a smokey doorway....




....have a huge wildland fire that fills your gaywad city with smoke for weeks. I'm sure you'll all piss and moan and cry but there won't be anything you can do but try to de-sand your collective vagina and maybe realize that a little smoke is not that big of a deal, certainly not a police matter. I sure hope nobody is being robbed or killed while police write tickets for smoking too close to your vaginas.

[bcrider]

Shouldn’t you be studying for you 8th grade math test tomorrow Yeti?

[ill-advised strategy]

here's a nice avatar for ya:

[bcrider]

Thanks Yeti!

I was just thinking I needed a new avatar.

Ps. Good luck on that test dogg, you’ll need a decent education when you grow up into a big boy.