Seattle Smoking Ban

**ill-advised strategy** · 12-10-2005, 12:57 PM

This shit, for me, is just a symptom of our society's collective loss of nature. So you go out at night and sit in the smoke like people have been doing for centuries. It's no different than standing around a campfire. It's no different than staying at YetiMan's old woodstove-heated house in Taos. I think the problem is that people feel entitled to a clean, tidy, sweet-smelling, germ free, painless, convenient, safety-ensured world. This perfectly clean safe world is bullshit and the shitty little laws passed trying to create it are bullshit.

**bcrider** · 12-10-2005, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by grrrr

There is no right of anyone to put toxic vapors in the air where others may be forced to breathe them.

People may have a right to smoke, but they have no right to force others to smoke as well.

FKNA dude. That's it. Pretty simple really.

**ill-advised strategy** · 12-10-2005, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by grrrr

There is no right of anyone to put toxic vapors in the air where others may be forced to breathe them. If you do it burning any other substance than tobacco, you are breaking the law. Why should tobacco be any different? It is not about individual choice, it is about what you do to others.

you are not entitled to a clean safe bubble around you at all times. You are a part of nature, it's a dirty, mean, nasty, smokey, painfull bitch...get used to it.

**bdog** · 12-10-2005, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by grrrr

The ban is Washington State, not City of Seattle. People may have a right to smoke, but they have no right to force others to smoke as well.

This is the point. Second hand smoke kills. Period. Your "freedom" ends where it infinges on another person's health.

**iceman** · 12-10-2005, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by bcrider

FKNA dude. That's it. Pretty simple really.

Who the fuck is forcing you to go into an establishment where smoking is allowed? Why do you feel compelled to make sure that such establishments don't exist?

You guys are no better than a bunch of bible-thumpers.

**Nate Dogg** · 12-10-2005, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by YetiMan

This shit, for me, is just a symptom of our society's collective loss of nature. So you go out at night and sit in the smoke like people have been doing for centuries. It's no different than standing around a campfire. It's no different than staying at YetiMan's old woodstove-heated house in Taos. I think the problem is that people feel entitled to a clean, tidy, sweet-smelling, germ free, painless, convenient, safety-ensured world. This perfectly clean safe world is bullshit and the shitty little laws passed trying to create it are bullshit.

Yeti - quit while you're behind. I don't go out and sit by the campfire and roast marshmellows, and if I did...I wouldn't sit downwind from the fire. By the way, a cigarette is not a rolled up campfire that people are sucking on....

**bcrider** · 12-10-2005, 01:04 PM

Cigarettes and nature…we’ve heard it all now! bwahahahah

You’re a trip Yeti. The scary part is there are many more like you. United we are not…problems with our society, yes.

Again, comparing something like smoke from a campfire to second hand cigarette smoke is ludicrous. Are you really trying to make this argument?

**ill-advised strategy** · 12-10-2005, 01:06 PM

fuck off. smoke is smoke. people have lived in smoke since we discovered fire. that's the point.

**Odin** · 12-10-2005, 01:07 PM

If government as a whole is allowed to control certain aspects that people believe is poising the general area, can that expand into other aspects as well?

Because those crazy dudes over in the middle east have been publishing the Koran over here and getting people riled up and forcing me to have to deal with it, and I don't want it in or around me. Can we ban muslism as well please? It would stop people from bombing other people.... trust me.

granted that this is a less indirect source of death than cigarretes, but car bombs kill faster than cigarettes do.

**bcrider** · 12-10-2005, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by YetiMan

fuck off. smoke is smoke. people have lived in smoke since we discovered fire. that's the point.

you are an IDIOT!

**bcrider** · 12-10-2005, 01:10 PM

really.

....

**tibaher** · 12-10-2005, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by iceman

You guys are no better than a bunch of bible-thumpers.

FIREdevil

smoke 'em if they give a f*ck
heh

**ill-advised strategy** · 12-10-2005, 01:13 PM

and by the way, pussies....

by your "don't make me inhale one breath of your smoke as I exit the building" argument, any professional wildland firefighter would be dead after a season. We live in smoke all summer long and somehow cheat death en masse. Y'all just need to remember that you're not the bubble boy, you can actually breathe smoke and not keel over, your parents and grandparents and great grandparents did....it'll be ok.

I have to go. Debate club was fun today!

**bcrider** · 12-10-2005, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by iceman

Who the fuck is forcing you to go into an establishment where smoking is allowed? Why do you feel compelled to make sure that such establishments don't exist?

You guys are no better than a bunch of bible-thumpers.

Ice,
This is a much larger issue than just what goes on in an establishment. You’re right. We have a choice to choose what establishments we frequent. The bigger issue (for me) is what goes on in public places, non at an establishment and the smoker’s attitude that come with it (like Yeti’s)

If I want to take my kids to the park, I shouldn’t have to walk around a cloud of cigarette smoke to get there. If I want to walk down the street I shouldn’t have to hold my breath as I pass a bunch of smokers.

grrrr said it well:

Originally Posted by grrrr

There is no right of anyone to put toxic vapors in the air where others may be forced to breathe them.

ps. Ice, meet ya in the garage for a couple pulls off the bubbler?

**bcrider** · 12-10-2005, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by YetiMan

Debate club was fun today!

yeah...you didnt do so well...your posts speak for themselves.

**ill-advised strategy** · 12-10-2005, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by bcrider

If I want to take my kids to the park, I shouldn’t have to walk around a cloud of cigarette smoke to get there. If I want to walk down the street I shouldn’t have to hold my breath as I pass a bunch of smokers.

go get 'em bubble boy!

**bcrider** · 12-10-2005, 01:20 PM

Ps- Yeti, how old are you? I’ve seen better debate skills (and basic logic) in junior high.

**Odin** · 12-10-2005, 01:22 PM

Isn't it possible to have a debate aboot an issue without resorting to name calling and junior high insults?

No?

(stumbles away, pride shaken, yells back over shoulder)

DOUCHEBAGS!

**cj001f** · 12-10-2005, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by bcrider

If I want to take my kids to the park, I shouldn’t have to walk around a cloud of cigarette smoke to get there. If I want to walk down the street I shouldn’t have to hold my breath as I pass a bunch of smokers.

So build yourself a bubble. A smoker of other things bitching about cigarettes

Alcohol is next. Like happened with smoking, first consumption declines, then they regulate, then they extinguish.

**bcrider** · 12-10-2005, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by cj001f

A smoker of other things bitching about cigarettes

I don’t smoke mine in public where it affects other people by polluting their oxygen and creating a huge litter problem.

**B-RAD** · 12-10-2005, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by YetiMan

fuck off. smoke is smoke. people have lived in smoke since we discovered fire. that's the point.

you might want to do a little research in what really is in cigarette smoke... or if smoke is just smoke; ever tried getting high off a campfire or oregano? "but officer its just smoke, no different than your campfire" "shut up son, give me your marijuana".

**Steven S. Dallas** · 12-10-2005, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

There's a smidge of weight to the employee claim. But then again, it's a matter of choice in that regard too.

Kind of, but not really. If you want to work in a restaurant, you should be able to work in a restaurant without endangering yourself. We shouldn't make being exposed to dangerous conditions a necessary part of a job if we can help it, and we can. I guess it comes down to whether you consider secondhand smoke exposure a necessary and unavoidable part of restaurant work, which is to say, whether you consider smokiness in a restaurant or bar a necessary and essential condition of a bar or restaurant. I don't. As long as there is smoking in bars, people for whom it is the best, highest paying job they can get will either get sick because of it or pass it up because of health considerations. I don't think they should have to make an economic decision based on a health consideration that is created not by an essential condition of the nature of the work but by a condition we can easily change for the better (healthwise). That's all.

edit: does this make any sense? I'm fucking fried.

**garwhal** · 12-10-2005, 02:12 PM

I haven't had the time to read all of Yeti man's banality in depth, but a couple of points: 1) the free market point is very good. Let people make the choice if they want to go to a smoky bar or a minty fresh bar. Ill go minty fresh--but there won't be as many loose women, which is a problem.
2) An even better point is the one about smokers thinking they hae a right to polluting someone elses oxygen. Under the clean Air Act, company's are required to get emissions credit and participate in a trading system in order to reduce their emissions. Is that an impingment on thier right to smoke? We just pulled out of the Montreal Talks on Co2 emissons--are we justifying that on our right to smoke?

Getting shitfaced and killing your liver is killing your liver, not someone elses. When you smoke, you are fucking up someone else--so smokers are actually the one's violating constitutional rights. Don't parlay this into some dramatic fight for liberty. The other side has a better "liberty" argument than you do.