Setting forward pressure on Salomon bindings with tab adjustment

[flyby]

i believe proper toe height is being able to slide a piece of paper underneath and out of the toe-AFD interface with little resistance, not what you described. the space is necessary for proper release.

[bertrenolds]

I will adjust the toe heigth a little bit and I am gonna get a new plate for the rear so both boots fit the same. I'm also gonna keep my eyes out for a pair of 916's, I know someone in the swap area was selling a pair but probably for more then I can afford right now. Singel, metal is better then plastic! Was at breck the other day noticed a pair of skis missing a broken off toe piece, I bet that crash sucked! I never trusted rail systems, I might as well not trust plastic bindings either. Thanks for the feedback everyone.

[buckethead]

No fall zone binding = 916, P18, etc. (Metal>Plastic). There is nothing wrong with 912's, and in most ways they are actually better than the new Z12's.

and nothing particularly dated about 'em either.
they're downright new next to 997s/900S which i have on nearly all the skis i use regularly...but they all have the same basic design/fuctionality.

thanks to wildstyle for posting the link to the manual.
i learned that i was aiming for the wrong set-point on the worm screw (correct=3mm of screw shaft showing, whereas i was setting for where the screw shaft disappeared into the heel)

[strawjack]

and nothing particularly dated about 'em either.
they're downright new next to 997s/900S which i have on nearly all the skis i use regularly...but they all have the same basic design/fuctionality.

thanks to wildstyle for posting the link to the manual.
i learned that i was aiming for the wrong set-point on the worm screw (correct=3mm of screw shaft showing, whereas i was setting for where the screw shaft disappeared into the heel)

didnt' the 997 have the little lines to for the end of the screw to line up with?
^
== screw ==

similar to the newer binders but a much smaller window.
==.......==
==|< >|==
==.......==

[buckethead]

^^ gonna look for markings tonite when i reset the screws...i just assumed the wrong (logical) set point. i'm yet to release/pre-release out of any of my 997s so i can't imagine my setting could be that far off, but glad to learn the proper set point!

[H-wood]

i believe proper toe height is being able to slide a piece of paper underneath and out of the toe-AFD interface with little resistance, not what you described. the space is necessary for proper release.

No. Spec is 0-.5mm. If you're going to use paper or card, make sure you pull back on the cuff, or it will appear lower than it is. Most people (and a lot of shops) set this too high, and you can feel the boot toe moving around in the toepiece, like a Marker. You don't need space for proper release, you just don't want the boot toe lug pinched in there, which will create more friction (which probably doesn't matter if you use a high DIN).

[land]

bump for this useful thread
and because there is a monoski section in the tech manual.

[CP1]

So the shop told me my 900s are out of the indemnity period and wouldn't mount them. They did however drill the holes for me. I've never learned the propper adjusment sequence, always relied on the shop to set proper toe height, forward pressure etc. Needing some knowledge I turned to here. This thread rocks and I was able to easily set them up.

After getting these dialed in, I checked my other bindings and found the toe height was way too high on my explosivs, lots of daylight. Set them the proper way and got rid of that toe wiggle which always had me second guessing the job another shop did.

Cheers

[ShawnB]

Stoicchris's question never got properly answered -- and it was a good one...

So I put it (again) to the resident experts: Which is preferable... This:



.....TIP

==.....==


....< >
==.....==

....TAIL


Or this:


.....TIP

==.....==
....< >


==.....==

....TAIL


Both are within the boundary marks, so are "properly" set.
But there must be a perspective out there, from serious and presumably insufferably nitpicky dudes, on which way to go if faced with the choice of not hitting dead center (presumably ideal).

Actually I just want to know because I'm really tired of wtf-releasing on my maxed-out 914's, but wouldn't mind monkeying with them if possible to get the least prereleasing -- can't hit dead center on the hashed space given, tho. Thoughts? Thanks.

[wildstyle]

Shawnb ....

Need some info to give you a hand ...
1. whats your height ?
2. Whats your weight ?
3. Whats your boot length ?

4. what DIN have you dialled in on your binders ?
5. How old are your 914's ?
6. How old are your boots , how ground up are your toe / heel pieces on them?

[wildstyle]

To understand how the heel piece moves , set the din to 6 or less and push the heel back towards the tail of the ski while looking at the tabbed area. you will then see that the arrows stay static while the left and right scribed areas move with the heel towards the back of the ski.

So looking at your diagrams, If i was setting a binder and it had these two options available, and i knew you were a confident and competent skier, i would have the arrows closer to the tip side of the scribed area as opposed to closer to the tail . Note: both of these settings would satisfy the Salomon indemnification as long as the arrows are in the scribed area.

IMPORTANT NOTE: do not have the arrows at the top or beyond this area as you will exceed the designed forward pressure raising the likelihood of the binder not release when you WANT it to causing knee carnage ..... make sure you take time as its your knees at stake. Always keep the arrows in he scribed area!!

This whole issue is the main reason why most people here prefer the worm screw version of the 900 series binders and the modern Salomon Sth binders. It allows for exact forward pressure adjustment so you can be forward pressure perfect on each binder.

Stoicchris's question never got properly answered -- and it was a good one...

So I put it (again) to the resident experts: Which is preferable... This:



.....TIP

==.....==


....< >
==.....==

....TAIL


Or this:


.....TIP

==.....==
....< >


==.....==

....TAIL


Both are within the boundary marks, so are "properly" set.
But there must be a perspective out there, from serious and presumably insufferably nitpicky dudes, on which way to go if faced with the choice of not hitting dead center (presumably ideal).

Actually I just want to know because I'm really tired of wtf-releasing on my maxed-out 914's, but wouldn't mind monkeying with them if possible to get the least prereleasing -- can't hit dead center on the hashed space given, tho. Thoughts? Thanks.

[strawjack]

Stoicchris's question never got properly answered -- and it was a good one...

So I put it (again) to the resident experts: Which is preferable... This:



.....TIP

==.....==


....< >
==.....==

....TAIL


Or this:


.....TIP

==.....==
....< >


==.....==

....TAIL


Both are within the boundary marks, so are "properly" set.
But there must be a perspective out there, from serious and presumably insufferably nitpicky dudes, on which way to go if faced with the choice of not hitting dead center (presumably ideal).

Actually I just want to know because I'm really tired of wtf-releasing on my maxed-out 914's, but wouldn't mind monkeying with them if possible to get the least prereleasing -- can't hit dead center on the hashed space given, tho. Thoughts? Thanks.

if you're within the range it doesn't really matter. although, i always have opted toward the front of the ski if you can hit within the range as you've shown. i wish they had stayed with the worm style as well.

i'm assuming your issue of pre-releasing is out of the heel piece? that is where i've had issues in the past. the toe is pretty bomber. i started riding with two different DINs...higher in the heel and that has helped.

too much forward pressure can make you pre release also...on a marker anyway...i tried that once...then i threw them away

[ShawnB]

To understand how the heel piece moves , set the din to 6 or less and...

Note: both of these settings would satisfy the Salomon indemnification as long as the arrows are in the scribed area...

IMPORTANT NOTE: do not have the arrows at the top or beyond this area as you will exceed the designed forward pressure raising the likelihood of the binder not release when you WANT it to causing knee carnage ..... make sure you take time as its your knees at stake. Always keep the arrows in he scribed area!!.

Sigh. I appreciate the input, man, but I know all the above and what the marks mean. That was all clearly indicated in my post, and has already been discussed in this thread at length.

I understand how the heel functions and why it moves the way it does. The diagrams I drew show the binding already within proper tolerances. The point: The first diagram I drew shows the heel set to less forward pressure than absolutely ideal; the second diagram; more forward pressure than absolutely ideal.

Both situations are alleged to lead to more prereleasing than a perfect dead center set. Anecdotally...
I was hoping to hear someone who really knows the issues explain which, of the two imperfect options, a TGR, not EpicSki, skier would choose. I.e., both may lead to some prereleasing, but one may lead to more prereleasing than the other.

The issue is very specific, and is not about me or my boots or weight or DIN. It's assuming everything else being equal, which of the two options given is less prereleasy. An answer to the question would benefit everybody (on Solly's, specifically).

Also, please let's not get into the tenuous theory that maxing is not an allowable DIN setting; I work with engineers and they are incapable of designing an achievable setting that is not three times more conservative than is needed, on anything. It costs them their ass and they don't do it.


Gurus, want to drop some deep knowledge?

[Teh Poacher]

Stoicchris's question never got properly answered -- and it was a good one...

So I put it (again) to the resident experts: Which is preferable... This:



.....TIP

==.....==


....< >
==.....==

....TAIL


Or this:


.....TIP

==.....==
....< >


==.....==

....TAIL


Both are within the boundary marks, so are "properly" set.
But there must be a perspective out there, from serious and presumably insufferably nitpicky dudes, on which way to go if faced with the choice of not hitting dead center (presumably ideal).

Actually I just want to know because I'm really tired of wtf-releasing on my maxed-out 914's, but wouldn't mind monkeying with them if possible to get the least prereleasing -- can't hit dead center on the hashed space given, tho. Thoughts? Thanks.

Option B is the preferred adjustment, given your situation as described. The second adjustment shows increased forward pressure over the first option, as the heel piece has moved further back in the track as the boot is placed in the binding.

The classic Solomon toe piece (inclined pivot) was designed to perform better with higher forward pressure. The increase in forward pressure does two things. When an impact is encountered that displaces the boot toe beyond the point of release, it aids the release function by 'forcing' if you will, the boot from the binding. When an impact of less than sufficient force to cause a release is 'absorbed' by the binding system, faster 'return to center' times will be measured with higher forward pressure. The ability for a binding to 'recover' via 'return to center' is as important as the preset release value, due to the fact that the binding is prepared to absorb another impact in less time, thus giving you maximum performance as your next impact is also starting the release motion from 'center'.

In worm-screw versions, it is totally acceptable and common in 'competition' to increase the forward pressure so the head of the adjustment screw is flush with the back edge of the mounting plate. No shop will ever adjust your binding this way, however is is common practice in some circles. Keep in mind a 'tab-adjust' Salomon heel piece should never be set in this fashion, as the tabs are not nearly as strong as the worm-gear and tab failure will result.

Salomon bindings with non-inclined pivot toe pieces are not the same and the forward pressure should not be adjusted in the same manner as described above (worm-screw).

It should also be said, this being an inter-webz forum.... YMMV.

[ShawnB]

Excellent, excellent, excellent, Teh Poacher. Thank you...

The 'return-to-center' speed and force is something that I had been assuming must be at work, and had been head-scratching about for some time. I had been landing some biggish drops, perfectly centered, and come out of the landing missing a shoe. But no 'true' heel release.

Physically the only mechanism that seemed to suggest itself was that the binding extended backward in absorption as the ski flexed deeply (shortening the distance between binding pieces; binding slid backward in its track), followed by the ski quickly rebounding (ski straightens out; binding pieces redistance themselves; low forward pressure results in rear binding not being able to 'catch up' with rate of rebound and space opens up within binding/boot interface).

So, during that rebound (I've been theorizing), my toe bounced upward out of the binding.

Am absolutely glad to know the two different mechanisms affected by overmuch forward pressure. I think I can accept slightly more frequent sideways toe-out, if I can eliminate the mysterious and annoying 'dead-center toe-out' that was too often happening. Sounds like 'Option B' is the best. Thank you so much for the enlightened input.

[Boof Head]

I posted this over at the binding template thread but probably should be here as well.



After reading/viewing as much info as i could find here and other forums. i finally mounted a couple of pair of skis. First up, I downloaded the salomon template from here and and mounted some Salomon Z12 bindings on to my daughters new twinnies.Second pair; I mounted some railflex plates to my Volkl Mantras.


Next stage is the adjustment. DIN is set, AFD clearance is set my only query and the reason for this post is forward pressure. Reading the 09/10 Salomon manual it looks like the setting for forward pressure is when the arrows lie somewhere in the yellow region. There isn't any scribed area as such, just a flat area (the part that I coloured yellow). am I correct?
Cheers and thanks for helpful info


.

[Eluder]

The arrows on the metal tab should be in the middle or within of the recessed area on the black plastic.

[strawjack]

i just mounted some sth14's that i had kicking around. these had the worm screw. the worm screw had scribed lines on it. honestly, i was a little confused on this set up as i've never seen it before. i assumed you would have the screw within the scribed lines?

looking here (http://www.salomoncertification.com/download.jsp), it says to line up with the end of the heel track. it does mention sth 16 and 12 but not 14. what is the right setting? thanks

-Edit

well, i went back and looked at the binder. the worm screw was within the scribed lines and the end of the screw was even with the heel track. i guess its a way of confirming everything is set perfectly.

[AweShuksan]

QUOTE=rludes025;3104413]The arrows on the metal tab should be in the middle or within of the recessed area on the black plastic.[/QUOTE]

Salomon is really bad about documenting this most basic adjustment info even though it is critical info. For example, I've just downloaded the Salomon 2010-2011 Shop Practice manual which states:

"The forward
pressure is correct when the arrow
on the adjustment tab lines
up within the scribed area at the
end of the heel housing Fig. A or
when the arrow of the rear of the
heel housing lines up within the
scribed area on the adjustment
tab. Fig. S 2009/2010 models
no longer have embossed arrows
on the adjustment tab. The back
edge of the tab should be used
instead."

The z12 Ti's I just purchased have no arrows and no scribe marks. I assume I use the back edge of the tab (as Salomon dictates above) and place it within the recessed area as directed by rludes025 (instead of the scribed area that Salomon mentions but that does not exist on this binding).

The reason I think this should be spelled out clear as a bell is due to a very painful experience I had over 20 years ago. It was my first time on snow skis (ever). I rented from the ski shop on the mountain who adjusted the bindings for the rental boots. I clicked in and pushed off down the slight slope between the ski shop and the bunny lift. When I reached about 7 mph I decided it was time to try my first snowplow stop. Unfortunately, I veered off the groomed into 2 feet of heavy, wet and flopped forward (my first crash on snow skis). I had travelled about 30 feet and had not even made it to the rope tow or lift. My binding would not release. Even the gnarly Ski Patroller who came to my assistance could not get the boot to release from the binding. He was sitting on the snow with another patroller bracing my ski while he kicked on the heel release with all his might. I had a nasty spiral fracture of the tibia but the patroller did not know that as he was kicking unsuccessfully to release the binding (he wondered why I was whimpering). Turns out the binding was adjusted for the wrong BSL and my foot was painfully extracted from the ski boot on the slope. To say that the kicking and eventual boot removal hurts when you have a nasty spiral fracture would be a slight understatement. To this day the only thing I've felt that compares is passing a kidney stone.

The rental shop employee obviously did not know how to properly adjust the binding to match the BSL. I was in a cast for 6 months. It could not take weight for over 4 months without hurting like hell due to the spiral fracture trying to open up. When you are 15 years old, 6 months is almost an eternity. Ignorance has it's consequences. Info such as this should not be presented in such a casual and incomplete manner. There was no lawsuit as my parents had good medical insurance but we all pay for this kind of ignorance. Salomon, get your shit together and provide a shop practice manual that has clear and accurate instructions for ALL of your current binding models!

[AweShuksan]

Salomon, get your shit together and provide a shop practice manual that has clear and accurate instructions for ALL of your current binding models!

The same 2010-2011 Shop Practices Manual has another inaccuracy. On a picture of a binding labled "Z12 Ti" it points to the screw in the top of the toe piece and lables it "Toe height adjustment screw". This binding has automatic toe height adjustment and the screw is not an adjustment screw but holds the binding together.

[coldfeet]

The rental shop employee obviously did not know how to properly adjust the binding to match the BSL. I was in a cast for 6 months. It could not take weight for over 4 months without hurting like hell due to the spiral fracture trying to open up. When you are 15 years old, 6 months is almost an eternity. Ignorance has it's consequences. Info such as this should not be presented in such a casual and incomplete manner. There was no lawsuit as my parents had good medical insurance but we all pay for this kind of ignorance. Salomon, get your shit together and provide a shop practice manual that has clear and accurate instructions for ALL of your current binding models!

I'm sorry you got hurt, but you have to realize that a shop practices manual that is unclear to you and a rental shop tech monkey who doesn't adjust a rental binding correctly have almost nothing to do with each other. In my limited experience I have not seen a tech at a mountain shop looking at the manual while adjusting rental skis (and I hope not to see that). Mountain rentals are usually a pretty standard procedure that the tech must do many times a day, and in this case the monkey screwed up.

Salomon should be thanked for making their manual downloadable so we can read about their bindings without a secret dealer handshake. Some of the other binding makers don't do this - probably because they're afraid to give people knowledge because some ignorant person might hurt themselves. That sucks.

[stuckathuntermtn]

So, I just got some Explosivs with S900s in them from Jethro. (props, man) And heal up quick, Gripen!

It looks like the heel adjustment is backed up all the way, but I think the forward pressure is about maxed out. I'm not redrilling these things. They'll come out from time to time, when it hasn't snowed in a while and maybe we get 2". Or something. I have Enforcers and Rubies so major overlap. They won't be getting used much. Then again, I haven't skied them.
They are the 190. (How long is that anyway? Looks like a tru 185 standing up).
So, am I alright just lowering the din a little? I usually ski at 9, so I was thinking 8.5.
TIA