I don't get it

[Art Shirk]

Reasons for people's (not necessarily me) consternation over losing the J-hole tram:
- some like its nostaligic and traditional qualities, i.e. the association with the resort;
- as said before, entertainment and comradery value, i.e. ganjula, squirrel incidents from Hot Dog, etc.
- use in reaching better terrain
- shield from the elements
- in some cases, speed

At the ever-present risk of rehashing, Crystal is purportedly getting one that goes from base to T-Rex summit.

[Endlessseason]

It's okay, it is no skin off my nose but I gaurantee you that even on a line into the plaza day you can bust out more cirque laps via the tram than on chairs.

I don't think so, LB. Follow this math: If the line spills into the plaza it's a 3-tram wait (the first tram takes the main pen and approximately 15 people past the trash can, the 2nd load is from that point to just out the door, the 3rd tram obviously takes the people from just beyond the doorway out to the plaza. If the mazes are full, the tram has already gone, and you happen to be too many peeps outside the door so that you end up in that 3rd group, you won't be touching snow for 42 minutes. If you are in that same spot but the tram is filling up, it is no longer a 3-tram wait; it is by definition a 2-tram wait. You'll be at the top of HP in 21-31 minutes. Unless they're prefilling the tram stage. Then it will be another 10 1/2 minutes (that's the average round trip time at the Bird when the tram is running at the peak-season speed of 8 1/2 minutes dock-to-dock).

So....when I make the big left 'round the bottom of Chips or Adager and glide by the merging trail ropes above the bridge, I always glance into the bullpen. If the pen is 2-trams or more, or I just missed the tram on a 1-tram day, it's way more worth it to me to glide over to Zoom AFAP to get to the top. Why? Because it only takes me an average of 27 minutes to get to the top of the peak from that point, PLUS I get to ski 1400+ vert in Mineral on my way, instead of standing in the tram line! From that point, it's 2 mins to the chair (incl pass check and a small line); an 8.5 min Zoom ride; less than 9 mins on LC, including skiing over to it and waiting a few moments in a small line; 3-4 minutes to shoosh Mineral; and a 4 minute ride to the top of the tram.

In conclusion, here's the scenario: You and a buddy reach the "merging" ropes above the skier bridge on a 2-tram day as the tram is docking. There's no way he can make the docking tram. You split up, he heads for the tram and you ski off to Gadzoom. You can take Zoom, LC, actually SKI Mineral, and be at the top of Hidden Peak in less than 30 minutes to greet him as he walks off the tram. That's the reason I don't ride the tram on crowded days.

Once you realize this there's really no need to waste time in the tram line on a busy day.

[BigKuba]

Jackson Hole alternatives (times and vertical quoted from the JH trail map):

Ride the tram:

4,139 vertical feet. All skiable with minimal traversing if you choose. Ride time... 10 minutes. Includes skiing Rendezvous Bowl.

Ride the gondola/chairs:

Gondola Ride (2,730 vertical feet, 7 minutes), Thunder Chair (1,456 vertical feet, 7 minutes), Sublette Chair (1,630 vertical feet, 8 minutes). Total vertical = 5,816. Total ride time... 22 minutes.

Tram ride = 414 vertical feet per minute of lift riding.

Gondola/chairs = 264 vertical feet per minute of lift riding.

Riding the tram gets you more vertical feet in less time, takes you to the summit of the mountain, and lets you ski Rendezvous Bowl and the Hobacks/Lower Faces with minimal traversing.

Riding the gondola and chairs means quite a lot of skiing/traversing to get to much of the same terrain.

Riding the tram does get you more skiing in less time, but waiting for the tram = 0 vertical feet per minute for a lot of minutes.

Assuming that I won't get up early enough to get first box on a powder day, and I'm a lazy lazy man, I'd much rather get there 45 min before opening and get one of the first 10 ganjola cars. You don't get rendezvous bowl but you do get a nice fresh granny chutes to laramie bowl or the trees-n-shit on the skier's right of grand to sublette, with possibly a thunder trees lap if it's looking good. Then you're in the same place that the tram would get you to, but with 2-3 more hours of sleep & 2+ runs under the belt, and there are still nice lines off sublette for the taking.

I'm ok with that kind of skiing/traversing. I can't argue against a no-wait tram, but that doesn't really exist in the morning.

[golden powder]

gotta give some love for the three cable car intersection at the base of Mt Fort, Verbier. Also have to give love for the Diablerets Glacier3000 cable cars. I can't imagine how they would be able to get you from the parking lot to the top of the mountain using chairlifts or gondolas. Also the wind issue is pretty major. I'd rather be skiing in 70+mph wind gusts than sitting in the lodge waiting for the weather to clear so they can start the chairs.

I also prefer fixed grip chairs over high speeds because it keeps people off the runs (more room to have fun) and gives you a longer chance to rest your legs.

[Powdurr]

The gondolas at Snowbasin are sweet! Plenty of room and no lines. Much easier to keep things lit if you know what I mean.

I'm all for gondolas/trams for this aspect.

[Powdurr]

Jackson Hole alternatives (times and vertical quoted from the JH trail map):

Ride the tram:

4,139 vertical feet. All skiable with minimal traversing if you choose. Ride time... 10 minutes. Includes skiing Rendezvous Bowl.

Ride the gondola/chairs:

Gondola Ride (2,730 vertical feet, 7 minutes), Thunder Chair (1,456 vertical feet, 7 minutes), Sublette Chair (1,630 vertical feet, 8 minutes). Total vertical = 5,816. Total ride time... 22 minutes.

Tram ride = 414 vertical feet per minute of lift riding.

Gondola/chairs = 264 vertical feet per minute of lift riding.

Riding the tram gets you more vertical feet in less time, takes you to the summit of the mountain, and lets you ski Rendezvous Bowl and the Hobacks/Lower Faces with minimal traversing.

Riding the gondola and chairs means quite a lot of skiing/traversing to get to much of the same terrain.




Well, it's often windy as hell at the top of the two highest chairs in Jackson. Dress warmly.

The reason both the Snowbird and JH trams tend to have long liftlines is that they're the most efficient way to get uphill. If you skied either place regularly and you had a no-liftline choice of tram or chairs all day, I'm pretty sure you'd take the tram.

Nice calculations there. But, I'm not saying that if the tram is the most efficient, I wouldn't take it, just that I'd prefer not to have a tram, not that that would even be an option. And as far as the wind issue goes, I'd be down for those euro style, 4 or 8 person, heated seat chairs with a big bubble, those would be the shit.

[Sluff Vertigo]

Whats the big deal with trams and gondolas? Do you guys really like them? I mean, theres all this whining about Jackson's tram coming down and all that. I prefer a nice high speed quad. The last thing I want to do while skiing is take my skis off, and get inside a little tram and stand up in ski boots, holding my skis, with way too many people around. Unless its like -20 and windy as hell, I'd prefer a high speed quad any day. Last time I was at snowbird, I realized how stupid trams are. You have to go take your skis off, then wait in line on some cement walkway, carrying your skis the whole time, then go through a bunch of turnstyles and all that. Screw that is what I say.

They should have trams between cities instead of freeways.

[schindlerpiste]

Yeah, trams suck. We must deal with long lines, a crowded ride (Sometimes with disgusting people farting on you), claustraphobia (ph.), etc. However, it gets us to the goods quicker, and sometimes, it is the only way to access where we want to be. People talk about Snowbird. While you can still access Great Scott and Silver Fox via 3 chairs, you must still hike, and you don't get up as high. What a hassle. Regarding europe, the only way to ski from St. Anton to Lech, is to take two trams (Valluga I and II). Some may say that the Arlberg is so vast that it is not necessary to ski from St. Anton to Lech. I say, the only people who would say that, are the people who have never tried it. To me, it's the best ride in the world!

[Endlessseason]

While you can still access Great Scott and Silver Fox via 3 chairs, you must still hike, and you don't get up as high. What a hassle.

I guess you haven't been here since they put in a quad that drops you off next to the tram. There isn't any hiking with the 3 chairs. None. The 3 chairs drop you off at exactly the same starting point as the tram.

[Particle]

This thread is lame. Sitting on cold windy lifts sucks more than the cattlecar fart-fest of the tram. I mean, I like the smell of stanky ski bums, foo-foo perfumed New Yorkers, and well...ass.

Ya know seriously though, it's just a vibe. It's the stoke of piling out of a giant box on top of a sickter mountain like JH or Snowbird or pretty much anywhere in the Alps. Hopping off the John Paul lift at basin is sweet, super Germ at alta is sweet...but talk about the 'opening a Christmas present' feel of spilling out of the tram on a blustery storm day...nothing beats it. Plus you don't have to suffer in the cold on the way up, your muscles stay loose...some people hate it some love it but for me trams are just a special way of accessing the mountains.

[sloppy2nds]

nothing like catching the flu on an cable flyin' petri dish

[schindlerpiste]

I guess you haven't been here since they put in a quad that drops you off next to the tram. There isn't any hiking with the 3 chairs. None. The 3 chairs drop you off at exactly the same starting point as the tram.

I wasn't even thinking about access via Mineral Basin. That just amplifies the hassle. I was talking first turns, in the AM. However you think of it, it is much more time consuming getting to the top without the tram.

[shera]

Jackson needs another way to the top besides the tram.I HATE waiting 45 minutes to get to the top.

Queue footage of you going off at La Cantina!

Hasn't that been uploaded - where's the link? It's on SoulSkier, right?

[Endlessseason]

I wasn't even thinking about access via Mineral Basin. That just amplifies the hassle. I was talking first turns, in the AM. However you think of it, it is much more time consuming getting to the top without the tram.

How does that amplify anything? The whole point was chairs=tram when tram route>2tram wait. You're talking first turns. We're not talking about the same thing.

The facts remain the same. If there is already a 2-tram wait as you saunter up to the tram line at 9AM, then you would have been better off walking up to Gadzoom at 9. The first tram takes off at 9AM as you get in line with a two-tram wait. The second tram departs a few seconds past 9:10. Thus ends your two-tram wait. You catch the 9:21 and reach the top at 9:31.

If you had taken Zoom at 9, you'd be at the top of LC dropping into Mineral before 9:18. As long as it doesn't take you more than 8 whole minutes to ski Mineral you'll be at the top of the tram by the same 9:31. The only thing this "amplifies" is the fact that you skied over 1400 vert and still reached the peak before you would have if you'd taken the tram route.

And, I agree with what some of the other posters have said about the atmosphere/excitement/vibe of the tram. I was speaking purely of time efficiency. If you've got the whole day to spend, especially with company, why not "enjoy" the whole experience of the tram maze and ride.

[bad_roo]

Build an underground funicular and have done with it. If Val d'Isere, Les Deux Alpes, Tignes and a hundred other European resorts can find a business model to finance it, then JH surely can.

[BCR]

I

prefer rickety old double chairs.

Ferget double chairs...

Give me a powder day at Mad River with the single chair (500 skiers per hour) any day of the week!
Getting to the top and having 100 yards between you and the last group that got up there - PRICELESS

[lemon boy]

Endless, I think that you're underestimating line times, especially LC. If there's tram lines to the plaza my experience is that LC is at least 10+ mins. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slavish to the tram but my experience is that round the world is not really a faster lap. Regardless, I don't think over the course of a day it will add up to much. And while including MB gets you to the top (I see why you're doing it) making it into hanging isn't out of the question from LC which counts as a damn fine "tram" lap. Plus, it is the tram, and I really like to ride it.

[Blurred]

Queue footage of you going off at La Cantina!

Hasn't that been uploaded - where's the link? It's on SoulSkier, right?

http://www.soulskier.com/soulskier2.wmv

"I'm no tram slave! Give me the chair, give me the fresh air......."

Classic!

[Endlessseason]

LB,
True. When LC lines are that long the chair route loses its advantage. Don't get me wrong--I like the tram when I'm wearing body armor, headphones, nose plugs, and a face mask.

[Tippster]

LB,
True. When LC lines are that long the chair route loses its advantage. Don't get me wrong--I like the tram when I'm wearing body armor, headphones, nose plugs, and a face mask.

Hell, I wear that at WORK.

The longest wait I ever had at Snowbird was at Little Cloud on a windy day. They only ran the damn thing at 1/2 speed, and the line was at least 45 minutes to an hour... after one lap we bailed and headed down to the Tram, where the line was 25 minutes tops for the rest of the day.