"A tram is high maintenance, low efficiency"

[Core Shot]

I got air on the Crusted Butte poma!

I wonder if anyone there at JH remembers how well the last rendezvous bowl Poma worked out?

[Shredhead]

Nothing quite compares to the experience of getting to the tramline at Jackson at 7 AM to try and secure first tram rights on a powder day.

Last time I was there it was 5:30am for first box, 7am would have got you 5th or 6th. All the guides were booked by locals so they could sleep in and didn't have to wait in hour+ lines.

[uglymoney]

I think you can throw out a lot of the arguments about a trams lack of capacity per hour, no one, or almost nobody wants the top of JH to be hammered anyway. That would basically destroy the experience. I love riding up in the tram, listening to all the different conversations, listening to the oft repeated speach, the excitement in the air as you approach the top, the speed of the lift, the view, watching the tram depart over beers at the end of the day, getting stuck in the tram while hanging over Corbets in a windstorm, lapping the tram on slow days, freezing at the top and overheating at the bottom, repeat.

I have memories of the tram that go back to my first day of skiing, learning on Eagles rest, later watching it from thunder. It means something to me, it always represented the future of my skiing until the day I finally took my first ride and realized the great beyond that it serviced.

I read the other points of view, the anti tram, and the nuetral trammers, and I understand, but I don't know if they understand the tram the same way I do. I realize that it is all an illusion of sorts, but the tram is something special and so is Jackson Hole. The mountain can exist without the tram the same way that Copper still stands under the mismanagement of Intrawest, or the town of Telluride still stands as a shadow of its 1980's self.

If things go my way, JH will stand proud and tall under the shadow of a new tram that looks and acts just like an improved old tram.

Meanwhile, it's been (on and off) nuking at the pass:

[bbirtle]

Trams suck. Europe has invested heavily in them and with a few exceptions they're a pain in the ass. But then again how could you build any other type of lift onto something like the Aiguille du Midi or the Kliene Matterhorn? Or the Furi-Trockner Steg cablecar, where the cables are like 100ft off the glaciar below? I just can't see a gondola getting you there, by a longshot.

Only good for those situations though. Otherwise give me a gondola, ideally (warm and toastie, break up the thermos of coffee and enjoy the break) or detachable quads are nice, especially the ones with the warmed leather seats and glass covers... and before you say it yeah I know - I'm a pussy when it comes to cold.......

[ptavv]

Trams suck. Europe has invested heavily in them and with a few exceptions they're a pain in the ass. But then again how could you build any other type of lift onto something like the Aiguille du Midi or the Kliene Matterhorn? Or the Furi-Trockner Steg cablecar, where the cables are like 100ft off the glaciar below? I just can't see a gondola getting you there, by a longshot.

Only good for those situations though. Otherwise give me a gondola, ideally (warm and toastie, break up the thermos of coffee and enjoy the break) or detachable quads are nice, especially the ones with the warmed leather seats and glass covers... and before you say it yeah I know - I'm a pussy when it comes to cold.......

I wouldn't so much limit it to you being a pussy in the cold.

[skiski]

I think you can throw out a lot of the arguments about a trams lack of capacity per hour, no one, or almost nobody wants the top of JH to be hammered anyway. That would basically destroy the experience. I love riding up in the tram, listening to all the different conversations, listening to the oft repeated speach, the excitement in the air as you approach the top, the speed of the lift, the view, watching the tram depart over beers at the end of the day, getting stuck in the tram while hanging over Corbets in a windstorm, lapping the tram on slow days, freezing at the top and overheating at the bottom, repeat.

I have memories of the tram that go back to my first day of skiing, learning on Eagles rest, later watching it from thunder. It means something to me, it always represented the future of my skiing until the day I finally took my first ride and realized the great beyond that it serviced.

I read the other points of view, the anti tram, and the nuetral trammers, and I understand, but I don't know if they understand the tram the same way I do. I realize that it is all an illusion of sorts, but the tram is something special and so is Jackson Hole. The mountain can exist without the tram the same way that Copper still stands under the mismanagement of Intrawest, or the town of Telluride still stands as a shadow of its 1980's self.

If things go my way, JH will stand proud and tall under the shadow of a new tram that looks and acts just like an improved old tram.

I'm with you. By the way, look at JH's trail map this year. On the big version it looks like they have thrown names on 4 shadows, no shadows etc. They have also put names up in Casper bowl and the crags. To me the former indicates that they do plan to make that inbounds at some point. The latter makes me think they may be putting that lift up the headwall. I wish they'd just get a new tram and leave it at that.

[AntiSoCalSkier]

A lot of European Poma's are detachable. There's basically a stack of towhangers (I had to visit Poma's website to figure out the technical name for what we all call pomas) sitting at the bottom of the lift with the cable running through their grips. When someone wants to get on the lift, they pull a hanger forward and the grip grabs onto the cable and takes off.

According to the Poma website, you can get these surface tows running at 790 ft/min (4 m/s). An older high speed quad runs at 1000 ft/min (5 m/s), and they are bragging about a few new models that are running at 1200 ft/min (6 m/s). In other words, a surface tow isn't really that slow.

At Geilo (Norway), there was a mountain that had a detachable Poma, a T-bar and a fixed-grip chairlift all running parallel. The Poma was a bit faster than the T-bar, and both of them were way faster than the chair.

[Spats]

This whole thing is just a smokescreen put on by the owners to try and bluff the state into paying for a new tram. It's SOP for developers: take the money from selling new development, and then stick the state with the bill for providing services.

[Core Shot]

I'm with you. By the way, look at JH's trail map this year. On the big version it looks like they have thrown names on 4 shadows, no shadows etc. They have also put names up in Casper bowl and the crags. To me the former indicates that they do plan to make that inbounds at some point. The latter makes me think they may be putting that lift up the headwall. I wish they'd just get a new tram and leave it at that.

Wow. Lotsa new and trendy names on that map.
I think they realize that the number one statistic for gapers (after hot tub ratio and on-hill dining) is number of trails.

A few of the classic names have been revealed, but there are some awesome marketing department names here:
BearTooth, GreyBull, Moccasin and Fremont are now cunting up upper Cody Bowl. (sorry but I'm still bummed about the Casper Traverse from the gondi that does no good except to create mogul bumps in the bottom half of Casper Bowl).
Bighorn Pathfinder and Crowfoot in Saratoga bowl.

I wonder if they will have actual signs in these bowls and woods saying turn here and ski there. Once upon a time those areas used to be wide open, and you could have a lot of fun finding your own run.

Can't wait for the tourists trying to ski Pair-a-chutes on a bad snow day.

As for Cody, I can't see it very well on the online maps, but did they actually show Central Chute? I cant believe they would be that stupid.

[skiski]

I'm sure they didn't show the central couloir or chute or whatever. It looks like just four shadows and the like that got named. But giving a name to anything out of bounds is a pretty bad idea.

[ptavv]

I'm sure they didn't show the central couloir or chute or whatever. It looks like just four shadows and the like that got named. But giving a name to anything out of bounds is a pretty bad idea.

It's not like people in the know will care what they name them. They've always had names, just not official ones.

[skiski]

No one who skis out there regularly should care one way or the other whether those areas are named on the map. I would just think that the resort could get sued if Joey from NJ gets avalanched because he assumed that it was okay to ski anything that was named on the map (or so says his lawyer). Or, some 16 year old who wanted to be able to brag to his friends that he had skied everything on the map. It's stupid, but you shuold not underestimate the human propensity for stupidity. At least not in America.

[SherpaStyle]

I'm sure they didn't show the central couloir or chute or whatever. It looks like just four shadows and the like that got named. But giving a name to anything out of bounds is a pretty bad idea.

Yeah, I saw the paper version of this years trail map a couple weeks ago. I was blown away. They've thrown names on everything on Cody, including Central (although they named it Central Couloir instead of Central Chute). For those who are unfamiliar with the chute its about 50 degrees, 15' wide, 200 yds long, and ends in a manditory 30 footer (on a good year). Not only are Central, No Shadows, Four Shadows, etc on the map, but they are marked as black runs. I foresee a lot of people wandering over there thinking that because it's on the map and is marked as an advanced, not expert area it is controlled and skiable for Joe Gaper from Tennessee. F'in marketing (supposedly they didn't even run the decision by patrol).

[Buster Highmen]

This whole thing is just a smokescreen put on by the owners to try and bluff the state into paying for a new tram. It's SOP for developers: take the money from selling new development, and then stick the state with the bill for providing services.

You forgot the endgame of bitching about taxes.

[warthog]

Yeah, I saw the paper version of this years trail map a couple weeks ago. I was blown away. They've thrown names on everything on Cody, including Central (although they named it Central Couloir instead of Central Chute). For those who are unfamiliar with the chute its about 50 degrees, 15' wide, 200 yds long, and ends in a manditory 30 footer (on a good year). Not only are Central, No Shadows, Four Shadows, etc on the map, but they are marked as black runs. I foresee a lot of people wandering over there thinking that because it's on the map and is marked as an advanced, not expert area it is controlled and skiable for Joe Gaper from Tennessee. F'in marketing (supposedly they didn't even run the decision by patrol).

Are you kidding? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The question is not IF, but WHEN some Joey throws himself off that thing. They better have that shit double and triple gated off next year.

[Mcwop]

The JH Tram is a germ box. What Maggot did not catch that nasty Mamalia Moose Flu at the summit?

With that said, the JH Tram had a lot of allure. I would miss it.

[Core Shot]

Yeah, I saw the paper version of this years trail map a couple weeks ago. I was blown away. They've thrown names on everything on Cody, including Central (although they named it Central Couloir instead of Central Chute). For those who are unfamiliar with the chute its about 50 degrees, 15' wide, 200 yds long, and ends in a manditory 30 footer (on a good year). Not only are Central, No Shadows, Four Shadows, etc on the map, but they are marked as black runs. I foresee a lot of people wandering over there thinking that because it's on the map and is marked as an advanced, not expert area it is controlled and skiable for Joe Gaper from Tennessee. F'in marketing (supposedly they didn't even run the decision by patrol).

Holy !!

Patrol must be pissed.

BTW, whatever happened to the ! triangle hazard routes? I think central is a !! run at the least.

Not even double blacks??

I always thought when the gates opened that someone would fly off of the cliff next to zero g.

I wish I had the balls to ski central. Maybe if I had gotten out there in my younger days. It should not even be on the map.

I wonder how many toursists will pucker up on the rock scramble to the begining of the ridge hike? Full roped rescues may be required. Or else, they will just tater backwards from lack of oxygen and loss of balance.

[comish]

Ya, that is rather shocking that Central is on there. That is the toughest thing I ever did and that was during a huge year when it was prolly easier than it has ever been.

Now I'm curious to see a copy of this map...

Oh ya, and Spats is completely right. This is all about getting the Gov to pay for a new lift. Pretty rediculous that they can spend the money on the new Bridger restaurant and everything else there, but then have to go whinging to the Gov for tax dollars for the tram. Weak.

[trainnvain]

Back in the day at fabulous Nashoba Valley they had a rope tow so fast you'd smell burning leather when you grabbed it and get air on the whoop-de's on the way up. That was a high-speed surface lift for sure.

That rope was run by a 350 cid chevy engine with the idle manually bailed for speed (thats why it would run at ridiculous speeds sometimes, right after they tighened the wire on the throttle arm). I still have the old leather glove covers you had to wear over your gloves for that lift.

I love the Cannon tram, the Jay tram is all foggy and evryone is talking funny.

[warthog]

Oh ya, and Spats is completely right. This is all about getting the Gov to pay for a new lift. Pretty rediculous that they can spend the money on the new Bridger restaurant and everything else there, but then have to go whinging to the Gov for tax dollars for the tram. Weak.

I agree with you, but I hope it works, all the same. I mean, they use your tax dollars for so much stupid shit, why not something worthwhile. I bet the ranchers will be up in arms though.

Either way, I do not see JH without the Tram. It will not happen.

[elevens]

Putting Central on the map is just plain stupid.......

I remember a few years ago two Gaper Joey's ventured into Central and got themselves in to a whole lot of trouble. Joey # 1 (on a snowboard) took a nasty spill after the entrance and a heli had to evac him out as Joey #2 hung on for dear life.

In my 3 seasons at JH, I only skied it once and would consider it one of the most difficult lines (45/50 degree steep and a mandatory air out) in JH BC. Good thing it's only a short hike from the gate

elevens

[Endlessseason]

I foresee a lot of people wandering over there thinking that because it's on the map and is marked as an advanced, not expert area it is controlled and skiable for Joe Gaper from Tennessee.

There's prolly at least one maggot with a take on this subject. Where is that TeleDave, anyways?

[shmerham]

There's prolly at least one maggot with a take on this subject. Where is that TeleDave, anyways?

but he would be Dave Gaper from Tennessee.






Kidding Dave.