Berthoud Pass Proposal

[pde20]

These "Avie Warning" signs should go up statewide - all over, everywhere. For example: Berthoud, Independence, Loveland, Vail, all road accessed passes with "killer" terrain ...

A consistent, state funded program to warn skiers that miscalculations and wrecklesness can prove deadly - public service announcements showing the families and friends that are left behind ...

I like: YOU CAN DIE, skull/crossbone ... pretty clear, Danger ahead

My intention is not to cunt up this thread, and I debated for awhile before deciding to post as it is not constructive to what is a healthy discussion on this board regarding what many think should be done regarding signage. Also, in advance, i mean no discrepsect to Sam or anyone else who has lost friend or family member to an avalanche.

I do, however, have a different opinion that is part of the broader debate. And after reading a couple of posts i couldn't resist adding a voice of dissent...and in the time it took me to write this flatlander hit on a number of points, so sorry for repeating anything.

Signs SHOULD NOT go up everywhere all over the place, near every road in the moutains. There are signs in place at numerous locations along berthoud pass and I believe at the summit of loveland pass. These are CDOT signs that are most commonly noticed as respositories for stickers. These are not be as explict as the group here is proposing, but in my view, the "scary" message is no more effective than the boilerplate language which already exists. A sign is not going to change behavior, evidence of which can be seen every year at the Canyons, Alta, Berthoud, Loveland Pass, Arapahoe....all places where there are signs or gates, and on a regular basis people with and people without the knowledge or skill ignore the sign and are killed. The picture from the canyons with the skull and cross bones is mounted on a swinging gate through which you have to forcibly walk. How much more explicit can you get? Do i want a turnstile at every pullout and pass in the state? No. The next logical step in protecting ourselves from ourselvs and our decisions is a USFS ranger at the trailhead doing beacon checks and forcibly denying access to the backcountry. Will this save lives...yes I am willing to concede that this extreme hypothetical would save lives. Would I support this infantilization of the general public in the interest of safety? No. And for the same reason, i don't support the infinitely more reasonable approach of trying to sign our way to safety.

... saying or doing nothing is not the American way. Mistakes happen I agree, but passive liberalism is for pussies. I say TAKE ACTION!

Passive liberalism is for pussies? Give me a break. I'll tell you what is for pussies: having a sign posted for every hazard at every location at every time. Your logic is the kind that endorses suing mcdonalds for not labeling their coffee as hot, and wants Homeland Security to spend millions protecting the sewage treatement plant in Fargo from Al Qaeda.

Your BS about "syaing or doing nothing is not the American way" sounds like a politician's bluster. What I want is for people to take responsibility for their actions and to stop insisting that the USFS, CDOT, CAIC, FOBP, ski resort or anyone besides themselves and their partners are responsible for what happens once they leave their car or the boundary rope. Are there a lot of uneducated people out there using these access points? Well yes, that is obvious. Can they use help in learning about avalanches? Yes. Is a sign at the trailhead going to be that final piece of information they internalize and which makes them reconsider their actions? Not a chance in hell as far as I see it. Outreach and education systems exist and many people are capable of utilizing the educational resouces, weather and avalanche forecasts and accumulated knowledge of fellow backcountry skiers to keep themselvs safe. If backcountry users willfully disregard all the resources and input avilalbe to them in advance, why should we think that a sign in big letters is going to be anything but a placebo?

To end on a positive note, I'll offer a few suggestions of where I think that maggot support SHOULD go and that I believe would both prove more effective in terms of changing behavior while also respecting the fact that in a free country at some point individuals must take responsibility for their own actions.

• Write your state legislator(s) and tell them that the CAIC should receive more and more stable state funding to do more extensive outreach and education efforts in schools, through print and radio media, and through targeted TV public service announcments.
• Write to Colorado Ski Country USA and encourage resorts to subsidise educational events like beacon bowls, make their ski patrols avilable for educational purposes on the slopes, and perhaps even to do occassional "adopt a pass" programs where members of nearby patrols (Winter Park/MJ at Berthoud; Loveland/A-Basin at Loveland; Vail and Copper at Vail) are paid to do outreach at trailheads or even lead free Backcountry laps for newbies.
  
• As lemon boy and others have stated, don't pick up Jonny Gaper at berthoud or loveland if they obiously are w/out gear. Or, taking the localism vibe that someone mentioned in some thread somewhere, pull over next to Jonny Gaper, ask if he has gear, if not then give him as thorough of a verbal lashing as your personality can muster, tell him to fuck off and get some gear and education and then drive away.
  
• Taking a cue from some enviro types who enjoy stickering soccer mom humvees with phrases like "i'm changing the climate , ask me how", print up some cheap sticker that read "I help kill people in the backcountry...ask me how." Carry them around and plaster them on cars you see with a bed full of gearless jonny gapers, or on the parked cars of those not running shuttle.

FINALLY, JOIN CAIC...GIVE THEM YOUR $$$...DO IT NOW

[mojorisin]

Although I also hate cliches, I think using the "if there's enough snow to ski, there's enough snow to slide" cliche could actually prove to be very effective.

Think about it, the sign is aimed more towards the tourons that frequent BP rather than the more experienced backcountry skier. The cliche is quite catchy, and could potentially start to stick in the heads of the unexperienced.

Whether or not they actually choose to heed these warnings is another question...

[funkendrenchman]

To end on a positive note, I'll offer a few suggestions of where I think that maggot support SHOULD go and that I believe would both prove more effective in terms of changing behavior while also respecting the fact that in a free country at some point individuals must take responsibility for their own actions.

• Write your legislature and tell them that the CAIC should receive more and more stable state funding to do more extensive outreach and education efforts in schools, through print and radio media, and through targeted TV public service announcments.
• Write to Colorado Ski Country USA and encourage resorts to subsidise educational events like beacon bowls, make their ski patrols avilable for educational purposes on the slopes, and perhaps even to do occassional "adopt a pass" programs where members of nearby patrols (Winter Park/MJ at Berthoud; Loveland/A-Basin at Loveland; Vail and Copper at Vail) are paid to do outreach at trailheads or even lead free Backcountry laps for newbies.
  
• As lemon boy and others have stated, don't pick up Jonny Gaper at berthoud or loveland if they obiously are w/out gear. Or, taking the localism vibe that someone mentioned in some thread somewhere, pull over next to Jonny Gaper, ask if he has gear, if not then give him as thorough of a verbal lashing as your personality can muster, tell him to fuck off and get some gear and education and then drive away.
  
• Taking a cue from some enviro types who enjoy stickering soccer mom humvees with phrases like "i'm changing the climate , ask me how", print up some cheap sticker that read "I help kill people in the backcountry...ask me how." Carry them around and plaster them on cars you see with a bed full of gearless jonny gapers, or on the parked cars of those not running shuttle.

FINALLY, JOIN CAIC...GIVE THEM YOUR $$$...DO IT NOW

Honestly, I don't think any of those would be very effective. I think signs would actually do more.

There is no way enough people would write to the legislature to actually get them to spend money on the CAIC when they have a hard enough time spending money on other education.

Awareness events and beacon bowls are great, but only for those that give a crap about becoming educated. Joey Gaper is not going to attend a beacon bowl or even have a beacon. Outreach is awesome, but if they don't attend they can't be reached.

Not picking up gapers is fine except someone will eventually pick them up, so what does it really do?

You really think that bumper sticker would do anything at all? I don't. Not to mention the vandalism side of your idea.


I am not trying to put you down... just my thoughts. When I see people around without gear, especially in East Vail, I ask if they have any gear and if not I tell them that they are risking death. I would support the idea of having a trail nazi who occaisionally goes out and gives people fines for not having the necessary equipment. The Forest Service can ticket for other things, why not this? THE FINE FOR ENTERING THE BC WITHOUT THE REQUIRED GEAR IS A $1000 MIN! They could make lots of money really quickly!

[pde20]

Honestly, I don't think any of those would be very effective. I think signs would actually do more.

There is no way enough people would write to the legislature to actually get them to spend money on the CAIC when they have a hard enough time spending money on other education.

Awareness events and beacon bowls are great, but only for those that give a crap about becoming educated. Joey Gaper is not going to attend a beacon bowl or even have a beacon.

Not picking up gapers is fine except someone will eventually pick them up, so what does it really do?

You really think that bumper sticker would do anything at all? I don't. Not to mention the vandalism side of your idea.


I am not trying to put you down... just my thoughts. When I see people around without gear, especially in East Vail, I ask if they have any gear and if not I tell them that they are risking death.

Why do you think that people who are not going to benefit from more opportunities at avy education are going to pay attention to any sign? We see these people in the same light: they are young, generally don't want to take advice from anyone, and are new to the BC. You have got to be kidding yourself if you see an inanimate object put in front of them at the last possible moment before they head into the BC as more effective than a concerted effort to reach and educate them prior to arriving at the doorstep of the backcountry. Your tack may be more realistic --getting a sign put up vs. changing legislative behavior -- but as for effective I don't buy it. As for the last two ideas, more self empowering, but you are right low return.

Good luck none the less.

[homerjay]

I am not trying to put you down... just my thoughts. When I see people around without gear, especially in East Vail, I ask if they have any gear and if not I tell them that they are risking death. I would support the idea of having a trail nazi who occaisionally goes out and gives people fines for not having the necessary equipment. The Forest Service can ticket for other things, why not this? THE FINE FOR ENTERING THE BC WITHOUT THE REQUIRED GEAR IS A $1000 MIN! They could make lots of money really quickly!

No fucking way, man. People have been skiing berthoud pass backcountry for decades without gear, and many do it safely. All you need to have the proper gear is a credit card and a trip to REI. From a ski area, I could see the logic of some type of turnstile (sp) that opens when you're transmitting, but that is because you're using the ski area leased land and ski area owned lifts to access that land. Do you really think CDOT (the owner of the access point to Berthoud Pass) has money to spend on backcountry skiing?

You get into way too much of a slippery slope with this idea.....it's OUR national forest, and as a taxpayer, "Joey Gaper" has just as much of a right to it as you do. That's how it is and that's how it should always be.

edit - and I add, as the snowboarders (sorry to single them out) are starting his posthole in my skin track, do you really think him and his bro's are going to read the signs, turn around, get back in the car and drive to Winter Park?

[Yossarian]

great post pde, well articulated and very fair opinion!
I may or may not agree with you (I don't even know yet!), but please, don't back off. The outcome will be improved by the debate.

My intention is not to cunt up this thread, and I debated for awhile before deciding to post as it is not constructive to what is a healthy discussion on this board regarding what many think should be done regarding signage. Also, in advance, i mean no discrepsect to Sam or anyone else who has lost friend or family member to an avalanche.

I do, however, have a different opinion that is part of the broader debate. And after reading a couple of posts i couldn't resist adding a voice of dissent...and in the time it took me to write this flatlander hit on a number of points, so sorry for repeating anything.

Signs SHOULD NOT go up everywhere all over the place, near every road in the moutains. There are signs in place at numerous locations along berthoud pass and I believe at the summit of loveland pass. These are CDOT signs that are most commonly noticed as respositories for stickers. These are not be as explict as the group here is proposing, but in my view, the "scary" message is no more effective than the boilerplate language which already exists. A sign is not going to change behavior, evidence of which can be seen every year at the Canyons, Alta, Berthoud, Loveland Pass, Arapahoe....all places where there are signs or gates, and on a regular basis people with and people without the knowledge or skill ignore the sign and are killed. The picture from the canyons with the skull and cross bones is mounted on a swinging gate through which you have to forcibly walk. How much more explicit can you get? Do i want a turnstile at every pullout and pass in the state? No. The next logical step in protecting ourselves from ourselvs and our decisions is a USFS ranger at the trailhead doing beacon checks and forcibly denying access to the backcountry. Will this save lives...yes I am willing to concede that this extreme hypothetical would save lives. Would I support this infantilization of the general public in the interest of safety? No. And for the same reason, i don't support the infinitely more reasonable approach of trying to sign our way to safety.



Passive liberalism is for pussies? Give me a break. I'll tell you what is for pussies: having a sign posted for every hazard at every location at every time. Your logic is the kind that endorses suing mcdonalds for not labeling their coffee as hot, and wants Homeland Security to spend millions protecting the sewage treatement plant in Fargo from Al Qaeda.

Your BS about "syaing or doing nothing is not the American way" sounds like a politician's bluster. What I want is for people to take responsibility for their actions and to stop insisting that the USFS, CDOT, CAIC, FOBP, ski resort or anyone besides themselves and their partners are responsible for what happens once they leave their car or the boundary rope. Are there a lot of uneducated people out there using these access points? Well yes, that is obvious. Can they use help in learning about avalanches? Yes. Is a sign at the trailhead going to be that final piece of information they internalize and which makes them reconsider their actions? Not a chance in hell as far as I see it. Outreach and education systems exist and many people are capable of utilizing the educational resouces, weather and avalanche forecasts and accumulated knowledge of fellow backcountry skiers to keep themselvs safe. If backcountry users willfully disregard all the resources and input avilalbe to them in advance, why should we think that a sign in big letters is going to be anything but a placebo?

To end on a positive note, I'll offer a few suggestions of where I think that maggot support SHOULD go and that I believe would both prove more effective in terms of changing behavior while also respecting the fact that in a free country at some point individuals must take responsibility for their own actions.

• Write your state legislator(s) and tell them that the CAIC should receive more and more stable state funding to do more extensive outreach and education efforts in schools, through print and radio media, and through targeted TV public service announcments.
• Write to Colorado Ski Country USA and encourage resorts to subsidise educational events like beacon bowls, make their ski patrols avilable for educational purposes on the slopes, and perhaps even to do occassional "adopt a pass" programs where members of nearby patrols (Winter Park/MJ at Berthoud; Loveland/A-Basin at Loveland; Vail and Copper at Vail) are paid to do outreach at trailheads or even lead free Backcountry laps for newbies.
  
• As lemon boy and others have stated, don't pick up Jonny Gaper at berthoud or loveland if they obiously are w/out gear. Or, taking the localism vibe that someone mentioned in some thread somewhere, pull over next to Jonny Gaper, ask if he has gear, if not then give him as thorough of a verbal lashing as your personality can muster, tell him to fuck off and get some gear and education and then drive away.
  
• Taking a cue from some enviro types who enjoy stickering soccer mom humvees with phrases like "i'm changing the climate , ask me how", print up some cheap sticker that read "I help kill people in the backcountry...ask me how." Carry them around and plaster them on cars you see with a bed full of gearless jonny gapers, or on the parked cars of those not running shuttle.

FINALLY, JOIN CAIC...GIVE THEM YOUR $$$...DO IT NOW

[wicked_sick]

If the sign idea becomes reality, and a design is required for approval, I would be more than happy to do properly dimensioned 2D and 3D models of whatever everyone agrees on.

[homerjay]

Rather than spew negative feedback, I'll add a suggestion...something to the effect of:

ALWAYS:
Follow smart travel protocol
Carry Rescue equipment
Call the CAIC prior to travel
Designate a group leader
Ski/ride one at a time
Identify and stop in safe areas

NEVER:
Ski or Ride Alone
Descend on another group
Travel without rescue equipment
Poach homer's line

you get the idea

and I like Elkhound's idea.

[funkendrenchman]

No fucking way, man. People have been skiing berthoud pass backcountry for decades without gear, and many do it safely. All you need to have the proper gear is a credit card and a trip to REI. From a ski area, I could see the logic of some type of turnstile (sp) that opens when you're transmitting, but that is because you're using the ski area leased land and ski area owned lifts to access that land. Do you really think CDOT (the owner of the access point to Berthoud Pass) has money to spend on backcountry skiing?

You get into way too much of a slippery slope with this idea.....it's OUR national forest, and as a taxpayer, "Joey Gaper" has just as much of a right to it as you do. That's how it is and that's how it should always be.

edit - and I add, as the snowboarders (sorry to single them out) are starting his posthole in my skin track, do you really think him and his bro's are going to read the signs, turn around, get back in the car and drive to Winter Park?

Put the signs at the bottom.

Yea, my idea there sucked, but they do things like that for snowmobile use, hunting, and jetski use as far as having a license. One person keeping watch could easily be paid for by fees and fines.

[Pinner]

FOBP has been looking into signage for a couple of years. It's part and parcel of the bigger picture and we'll continue to work on it.

That said, I personally don't know if scare tactics are the best idea. Signs don't always alter human behavior and at Berthoud you're targeting a very broad constituency. Johnny Gaper typically is not the type who gets caught in a slide.

I'd like to see the backcountry community take the issue in hand and increase awareness every day. If you see guys with no rescue gear, gently explain that there was recently a fatality on the Pass and that the risk of death is very real. Then point them in the direction of a run suitable for them to ski. Chewing someone out, calling them names and then vandalizing their car sounds like a pretty fucking lame approach to education, in my book.

[Cornholio]

I also don't know where I stand on the legislation in the BC debate, but I'm leaning more and more toward action.

First, this thread may be best served by keeping the point on a sign, if it's a good idea, and what it might say. But, that's only a segue in to the larger debate, so what do I know.

That said:

The difference between joe gaper going hiking from berthoud summit and joe hiker going SKIING from berthoud summit without knowledge and gear and some minor clue is that if joe hiker gets lost or hurt or falls, it sucks and costs money for SAR, but he's not putting his rescuers at additional risk. Not much, anyway. Joe gaper has 30 or 40 people wandering around in an avalanche path with hangfire above.

So, I support the sign.

Also, let's not forget that the typical slide victim is NOT Joe Gaper. It's us. It's us when we lose focus and make bad decisions. I think the sign is to remind US to keep OUR eyes on the ball. (edit: see eloquence of M. Pinnoir.)

Let's not kid ourselves about Berthoud summit being "wilderness," either.

[DJSapp]

Just a thought to add to the sign:

XXX PEOPLE DIED HERE THIS SEASON

RESCUE MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE

SEARCH AND RESCUE/BODY RECOVERY COST $XXX/HR AND WILL BE CHARGED TO YOU OR YOUR NEXT OF KIN

I saw that last line once on a sign near a rope I was thinking about ducking in NZ. I turned around. The thought of my parents being faced with my untimely death, and then hit with a huge body recovery bill straightened my ass up.

Good to have CAIC #/website and log book, bad bad bad to have today's avy danger thermometer. Lawyers live for danger thermometers.

[Elkhound Odin]

What about including a large map showing the avy pathes? The locations are well documented. That might clue some people in to the terrain better than strictly a warning sign.

[summit]

On Berthoud Pass, there is no charge for body recovery or rescue (unless you get a helo ride and dont have a SAR card or fishing/hunting/bile license etc).

A great one from Machine Gun Ridge (Vail Pass) has the warning then the number of people killed on the ridge.

[roscoe]

i also surf and some signs at the beachs say that if your ablilty is not good enough to be out you can get seriously injured or it may result in death that is always a good but hard word have it say something of that nature can be good

[funkendrenchman]

What about including a large map showing the avy pathes? The locations are well documented. That might clue some people in to the terrain better than strictly a warning sign.

The lawsuits would then claim, "but that area wasn't marked on the map." Almost everything could slide. If you're skiing there you should be familiar with the well documented slide paths or at least be able to recognize one.

[HyRUPz]

pde20 ... don't put words in my mouth dude - you are completely misinterpreting what I said re: signs ... I never said put them all over, every 2 miles - I said in high-risk high-traffic high-gaper areas. I don't care what you think, signs have worked for centuries ... still do.

Additional education and personal responsibility are the main part of the equation, a given and not what we're discussing ... Signs work, so I'm sticking to that; collective efforts work as well (State, local, FOBP, media, CoSkiCountry, ski areas ... a REAL EFFORT TO EDUCATE all of us actively persuing this lifestyle, create an awareness).

I agree, some people just go without thinking about the risks, I learned my lesson the hard way - hopefully others won't.

So pee20, throw 'em a rope dude, most inexperienced BC skiers are not as "educated" as you are ... a sign might stop them long enough to think; and if it saves 1 life - or they stop for an instant and think DEATH is possible and their (my) behavior adjusts toward safety, it was well worth putting in the sign

[Phatstix]

I hate legislation and totally think that safety is your own responsibility. However, I'll also admit that I've been caught-up in the moment, forget things in the car, forget to call CIAC (hell, I forgot to take my skins off yesterday). Awareness of bc proceedures and awareness of CIAC cannot hurt any of us. Putting a sign everywhere is not the answer. However, Loveland and Berthoud pass are utilized so much that a sign in those places can definitely raise awareness and act as reminders. If the FS can put signs up at MAJOR trail heads warning us of bears, mnt. lions, lightning, etc. why not at major roadside bc areas?

[Yossarian]

let me throw one more idea into the debate. It's either just the right thing, or terribly offensive. I'm not sure which. My deepest apologies to any involved if you find it offensive. My motivation is prevention, I hope that comes through.

Let me briefly propose a totally different approach. Sometimes the message is right, but the medium is wrong.

I'd like to propose a memorial to those who have died in an avalanche at Berthoud Pass. It is a place close to my heart, and an issue close to my passion.

I'd like it to be tasteful, asthetic, respectful.

I'd like it to be permanent and prominent, but not obnoxious or overbearing.

It would be simple, perhaps saying only "In Memory Of, Lost to an Avalanche Here at Berthoud Pass:" and then I'd like it to list the Names, Dates, and Ages of the people.

Flowers on the Memorial would be welcomed; I can't believe stickers would be put on it.

It could be read from the car in the summer if people pull through for a break, or passed just as you begin a tour in the winter. Newbies would perhaps reflect on it and put off that backcountry booter session for another day. We would pass it on the two foot dump, and stick to lapping the thick, low angle trees.

We'll brush it off if there's snow covering the names.

We'll touch it on the way when we start our tour.

Can something be both sacred and respectful, and still serve my ulterior motive of prevention? Is this offensive, that'd I propose such a blatant mixture of meaning and message? I hope not, but I apologize deeply if so.

But perhaps it's exactly the right thing. Both a meaningful memorial, and a warning to others. It is illustrates the seriousness of the issue, but seeks neither to regulate nor dictate.

It states simply, without saying anything at all, that People Die Here - Real People, Loved People, Like You, and Me - In Avalanches.

Perhaps that is enough. And also not too much.

I'm done for the night, keep it goin till it's done.

RIP SAM.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I'm in favor of a sign simply because it can't hurt. That being said, the two groups that I see being most at risk may not be helped by a sign.

The Ignorant - These are the no pack, no beep no common sense folk quite common around here. They read about the recent fatality, they are most likely aware that they are in avalanche terrain but for some reason don't modify they're behavior. They most likely either don't have rescue equipment or don't know now to using and ignore all safety protocols. Will this people read a sign? How do we collectively educate these people?

Poor Desicion Makers - It might be you, I work hard to ensure it's not me. They have all the neccessary equipment. They probably have a fair amount of experience. They know they should dig pits. They know what the current danger level is. They can talk to talk but they systematically make bad decisions. They don't know when to turn around. They don't know how to say no. They are well equiped with both education and equipment to behave safely but they don't. I'm at a complete loss with this group. What can we do?

[Cornholio]

let me throw one more idea into the debate. It's either just the right thing, or terribly offensive. I'm not sure which. My deepest apologies to any involved if you find it offensive. My motivation is prevention, I hope that comes through.

Let me briefly propose a totally different approach. Sometimes the message is right, but the medium is wrong.

I'd like to propose a memorial to those who have died in an avalanche at Berthoud Pass. It is a place close to my heart, and an issue close to my passion.

I'd like it to be tasteful, asthetic, respectful.

I'd like it to be permanent and prominent, but not obnoxious or overbearing.

It would be simple, perhaps saying only "In Memory Of, Lost to an Avalanche Here at Berthoud Pass:" and then I'd like it to list the Names, Dates, and Ages of the people.

Flowers on the Memorial would be welcomed; I can't believe stickers would be put on it.

It could be read from the car in the summer if people pull through for a break, or passed just as you begin a tour in the winter. Newbies would perhaps reflect on it and put off that backcountry booter session for another day. We would pass it on the two foot dump, and stick to lapping the thick, low angle trees.

We'll brush it off if there's snow covering the names.

We'll touch it on the way when we start our tour.

Can something be both sacred and respectful, and still serve my ulterior motive of prevention? Is this offensive, that'd I propose such a blatant mixture of meaning and message? I hope not, but I apologize deeply if so.

But perhaps it's exactly the right thing. Both a meaningful memorial, and a warning to others. It is illustrates the seriousness of the issue, but seeks neither to regulate nor dictate.

It states simply, without saying anything at all, that People Die Here - Real People, Loved People, Like You, and Me - In Avalanches.

Perhaps that is enough. And also not too much.

I'm done for the night, keep it goin till it's done.

RIP SAM.

Hey, pay attention! I suggested this on page 1!

And, here on page 4, I think it's a great idea.

[Cornholio]

The Ignorant -

I think the sign really helps these people. I think they read it and recognize the risk a little more deeply. Maybe.

Poor decision makers-

I think these people keep SAR and ski patrol up at night. I don't know about this either, except to work hard to keep my own backyard clean.

[Yossarian]

sure enough you did. But I was then thinking of it in the context of a warning sign.

Now, however, I am proposing just a memorial. No sign, no warning.

The memorial would be sobering enough if anything is going to have any impact at all.

[Yossarian]

worth repeating...
Now I'm really done for the night...

I'm in favor of a sign simply because it can't hurt. That being said, the two groups that I see being most at risk may not be helped by a sign.

The Ignorant - These are the no pack, no beep no common sense folk quite common around here. They read about the recent fatality, they are most likely aware that they are in avalanche terrain but for some reason don't modify they're behavior. They most likely either don't have rescue equipment or don't know now to using and ignore all safety protocols. Will this people read a sign? How do we collectively educate these people?

Poor Desicion Makers - It might be you, I work hard to ensure it's not me. They have all the neccessary equipment. They probably have a fair amount of experience. They know they should dig pits. They know what the current danger level is. They can talk to talk but they systematically make bad decisions. They don't know when to turn around. They don't know how to say no. They are well equiped with both education and equipment to behave safely but they don't. I'm at a complete loss with this group. What can we do?

[HyRUPz]

Great idea re: memorial ... there's one right under the Palli chair in fact, reminds me of the risks we take everytime I fly over it ...

Very good point Foggy, how do we create awareness when they refuse to pay attention - very good point ...