Berthoud Pass Proposal

[funkendrenchman]

How bout after the number that have died, add "Remember other CO pass locations can be equally as dangerous or more so.

[Cornholio]

We have these signs everywhere. 2 folks died last year, regardless, but there's no telling how many people were a bit more cautious because of it.

What do yours say?

Any mention of BC gear?

Does it matter?

[Cornholio]

Do you have the right Training, Team, and Tools to be safe?

^Gat.^

But it's less... condescending? Which is good.

How about: "Do you have your rescue gear?"

[Yossarian]

keep it moving forward, keep the suggestions coming, tap it while it's ripe and it still hurts...

I really have to work now.

EDIT: Corn, want to empasize avoidance, training, etc before gear somehow? Gotta run...

[funkendrenchman]

.

How about: "Do you have your rescue gear?"

Joey Gaper, " I've got my cell phone... let's go."

[Pinner]

I noticed new avy awareness signs at the pullout at Second Creek a few weeks ago. Dunno where else they are posted, but they are pretty well done. Anyone driving over the Pass in the next day or two? Take a picture and post it here.

[HyRUPz]

The State needs to step up (citizen welfare)

Standardize the signs, make them scary enough to make a 16 year old think about cause/effect or consequenses

"Lack of money is not the obstacle, lack of ideas is ..."

[funkendrenchman]

Standardize the signs, make them scary enough to make a 16 year old think about cause/effect or consequenses

If you get caught in an avalanche and die, you will never have sex again.

[Ireallyliketoski2]

I like this.

Always travel with a partner, rescue equipment, and the knowledge to use it.

[Cornholio]

I'm thinking this would be a sign that maybe could go at many BC trailheads that are easily accessed or whatever.

Maybe Friends of Loveland Pass can make their own darn sign... who knows.

Beer thirty here... keep the ideas up!

[Elkhound Odin]

ATTENTION

YOU ARE ABOUT TO ENTER AVALANCHE TERRAIN

YOU CAN DIE
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILTY TO MANTAIN SAFE TRAVEL. DO NOT PUT YOURSELF OR OTHERS AT RISK. USE PROPER AVALANCHE SAFETY GEAR.

CALL CAIC XXX-XXX-XXXX FOR CURRENT AVALANCHE CONDITIONS

my 2cents since it was asked for.

[Blurred]

You can die here!!!

XX people have died from avalanches in this area since 19XX.

This area is unmaintained, and to be respected.

Avalanche training, beacon, probe, and partner STRONGLY recommended!

Don't become another statistic.

[Wandrin*]

I support signage that explains that there is a specific risk to using an area, but don't support the Smokey Bear "today's risk is". If you provide people that sort of info and the unexpected happens then you will either 1) put yourself at risk of a lawsuit - "The sign said there was low danger and now Bobby is dead" or 2) People will come out alive on a high risk day (according to the sign) and will decide that whoever is putting the risk up there is not in touch with reality and will ignore it next time.

There are a couple things that give me pause... Nothing is ever safe. People will go and hurt or kill themselves no matter how many signs are up there. People who are good at being in the backcountry will still be dragged into bad situations trying to rescue the people that made mistakes. There is no way to put a sign at every point that people access the backcountry - and I wouldn't want to have that much signage up, anyway. It would get ignored.

I think this is a valiant effort, and I hope it saves lives. Unfortunately I don't think you can save them all.

[Below Zero]

Good point^^ about "safe". Halsted said lawyers have said to use the word "smart" instead of "safe"

[kneedropper]

How about adding a direct dial phone box linking it to CAIC daily report? Not sure about costs, but you could probably convince folks to pick up a free phone for a report right there at the sign.... sort of like an emergency call box deal.

[Blurred]

IMO the caic number and phone isn't the best idea....If someone is up there and hasn't called caic before leaving the house, it seems to me they don't have enough knowledge to be in the BC regardless. Anything else seems to condone entering the bc to a certain extent.

[HyRUPz]

Post the signs on main, high traffic, areas. Scare them ... saying or doing nothing is not the American way.

Mistakes happen I agree, but passive liberalism is for pussies.

I say TAKE ACTION!

[Cirquerider]

A trail register is often used to provide infomation. In addition to warnings, maps of the slide areas could be posted. People entering BC can be requested to sign in and out. Trail registers are used all over the place as interpretive and education devices. They can usually be lower profile than a large sign, and slow people down enough to provide more detailed information. If not at Berthoud, perhaps at more remote locations.

[OG]

IMO the caic number and phone isn't the best idea....If someone is up there and hasn't called caic before leaving the house, it seems to me they don't have enough knowledge to be in the BC regardless. Anything else seems to condone entering the bc to a certain extent.

Informing the public about the CAIC and the phone number is much different than actually posting the daily avalanche danger. We all forget things from time to time.
BTW - Didn't I see a video post of you filming directly below a skier? If I recall, before you were hit by the slide you said something like, "Stand by these trees...it's gonna go when he drops in."

[flatlander#2]

this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs. That and Nancy Reagan sure did alot to keep me from smoking pot in the eighties. Is the "sign" something to make you feel better or would it actually do any good? Would it be so cluttered with stickers and and Yo-we were here at 630, meet us at road at 1000 notes to be mute? Scare them? That's dumb. Remember the wrecked cars at your school during drunk driving awareness? This land is your land, this land is my land, equal access public land. You start here and end where? It still goes back to you are responsible for you and your actions. You can have the most educated geared up well meaning experienced fellas out there and something could happen-not even a mistake, things happens that could endanger or harm someone else, someone that is less experienced, etc than them. Then what? A sign for that? I've picked up shitloads of kids skipping school, parents probably don't know they're there, get in my truck they reek of pot smoke, wearing sweatshirts and split a liter of water between them. It is what it is, and that sucks and is also the beauty. Signs signs everywhere signs, clogging up the scenery, breaking my mind, do this don't do that. If you go out there expect worst case scenario, expect that someone could do something to put you in a bad situation, that someone is going to do something that is going to fuck up your life/day whatever. Its part of being out there.

If a sign it is, then Blurreds/Odin are close, delete the die here part. State the facts, that's all it is. Its your life, chose to live it how you want.

[HyRUPz]

So you don't stop at STOP signs? Hum, not sure on your "everywhere are signs" passivity ...

[Yossarian]

i hear where you are coming from flatlander, trust me I do.

But...doesn't pragmatism have to come in here sometime? I'll admit to being idealistic and optimistic, but aren't you being unrealistic? Or perhaps just idealistic in a different direction...?

As much as I agree that personal responsibility trumps everything else in the final analysis, and that the world is a slipperly slope, the reality of the matter is that norms do apply, ie, Stop Sign, Red Light, Don't Shoot People. Passivity is for pansies, and usage is exploding dangerously at Berthoud Pass. So perhaps something can be done about it. Ever read the Tipping Point? Sometimes it doesn't take much to push a system out of one unstable local equilibrium to an alternative, desired and more stable optimum. I'm not suggesting signage everwhere, I'm not even suggesting signage at Loveland Pass. Hell, I'm not even sure I'm suggesting a sign at all. I'm just suggesting that action is better than inaction.

But in the absence of a better idea, I'm suggesting one sign, at a place where a bunch of people will unquestionably continue to go without the proper Training, Team, and Tools (gat though the saying may be). I'm just hoping to keep just one of them alive for one more day.

I'm not setting policy, precedent, or anything else. I'm simply taking a stand and saying that trying to help is better than nothing at all, or worse, isolationism and isolationist libertarianism. I fully agree that only we are truly responsible for our own actions. Perhaps CJ has the right idea. Might be time for a commando campaign. And if you want to come take down my one sign, you're more than welcome. But just so you know, I'm just going to sneak up there the next time and put it back up.

We optimists think we'll will win the day eventually.

(Legal disclaimer: of course, I'd never do anything illegal myself, I'm just playing advocate for a moment to garner healthy debate from the community. Etc, etc.)

[flatlander#2]

I've rolled my share of stop signs, but the ones on trails I blow right the fuck through. Its still technically wilderness, doesn't matter how used/utilized it is. I don't think it's unrealistic. You don't put up signs in hunting areas that read, don't dress like an elk during hunting season. Don't wear your meat suit in cougar country. I think its unrealistic to expect this to do any real good other than make people feel good regarding present situation, which is admittedly a shitty one. Would someone think oh I'll go grab that now that I read the danger danger sign? No, they won't.

Hell, I'd help you put it up, I'm not for taking it down. I have a bitchin hand post hole digger and ALOT of experience...

[peterslovo]

Not familiar with the area in question, but will throw $0.02 in. Experienced BC travelers can still determine safe traverse and ski routes on high danger days, while a newcomer could easily kill themselves and/or others. Also, not every day will conditions be high or extreme.

I think it still comes down to the individual and reminding them that they need to know their own limits and skills.

1) Remind the traveller that they are entering an unpatrolled avalanche prone area that can kill you
2) Remind the traveller that they need to have the proper equipment and how to use that equipment (sadly, the simple reminder on a sign may have been enough to cause the individual who died recently to go back and get their beacon)
3) Remind the traveller to assess their own skills
4) Remind the traveller to travel in a group
5) Give some kind of "shock" statistics like the # of people who died. That always sobers me up when I go up Mt. Washington.

Adding something about having a travel schedule with someone at home is good, but may be too much text.

YOU ARE ENTERING AN UNPATROLLED AVALANCHE AREA

THIS IS YOUR CHOICE
YOU CAN DIE

• ALWAYS CARRY AND KNOW HOW TO USE YOUR RESCUE EQUIPMENT
• ALWAYS TRAVEL IN A GROUP
• ALWAYS KNOW YOUR SKILLS AND LIMITS

(stats here)
(Avy contact information here)

Sounds like a very necessary thread!

[STD]

[QUOTE=flatlander#2]I've rolled my share of stop signs, but the ones on trails I blow right the fuck through. Its still technically wilderness, doesn't matter how used/utilized it is. I don't think it's unrealistic. You don't put up signs in hunting areas that read, don't dress like an elk during hunting season. Don't wear your meat suit in cougar country. I think its unrealistic to expect this to do any real good other than make people feel good regarding present situation, which is admittedly a shitty one. Would someone think oh I'll go grab that now that I read the danger danger sign? No, they won't.
QUOTE]

Yeah, good point, but to hunt you need to first get a hunting license.

To ski the backcountry, you do not need a backcountry license.

Appreciate all the different ideas/opinions/observations. Keep em comin.