Berthoud Pass Proposal

[robokill1981]

If you put up a sign that says the danger is low and someone dies in a slide their family will sue for sure. No one needs to be in that position.

Strong language and the names/amount of people who have died should be enough warning. Maybe something to the effect of: "unlike other passes in CO much of the terrain closest to the road at BP is extremely avalanche prone" will remind front rangers that BP is vastly different than Loveland pass.

[schindlerpiste]

This is "mrryde's" pic., but it is a good one:

Click on it to enlarge.

[m1e448]

I'm in favor of it, and I'm sure there would be lots of people in Winter Park, Tabertrash, Fraser etc would be behind it. FOBP could maybe organize something like the Pub did for the guy seriously injured last year charity(excuse my ignorance here) in memeory of all those killed on Bert to raise funds and awaremess as well.

[Below Zero]

I will be happy to offer any drafting help that we may need. I've done signage packages for architectural problems, so I've got some experience. Let me know if I can help.

[Trackhead]

I have thought about something similar for BCC & LCC after last winter's brutal avalanche fatalities..

Several of the trailheads already have them. Like the Butler Fork trailhead for example.

They don't have the current forecast, just an advisement that you are entering potential avy terrain.

[Yossarian]

Man you guys suck at this whole editing thing. Fine, lemme try again. Slight tweaks:

"You are now entering hazardous snow avalanche terrain. If you proceed beyond this point without avalanche training, rescue gear, and backcountry partners, you are taking a life-threatening risk which may affect others as well as yourself. ** people have died at Berthoud Pass in avalanche-related accidents since 19**. Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.

For information on avalanche education, contact the Colorado Avalanche Information Center."



A small box on one of the posts could contain CAIC brochures if there were such a thing to procure. If we want to go one step up, we have a sign-in/sign-out box at the main eastside sign, as is done at MANY climbing areas across the country under FS and State regulation. It would certainly help from a rescue perspective. Date, Name, # in Party, Destination, Time In, Time Out. But again, there becomes a maintenance issue. However, perhaps this becomes a part of the FOBP responsibilities...

[flatlander#2]

We can probably provide an outline at best of what to say to USFS and their myriad of people. Something like this would have to go through them and they and their legal people would be the ultimate editor. Our thoughts and verbage are an input for sure, but its still our thoughts. Not the type of thing to fly in equal access country is it?

Of course then you have more shit being put up in the wild. What's next-Your 4by must be this tall to access this trail? To shoot this animal your cartridge must be this big (have a pic of various wildlife with recommended cartridges). Is this really the type of thing or is it a you're a big kid, act like one? I don't know one way or the other the answer, just asking the question. Do we want the outdoors to look like Have You Dug Wall Drug? Would it need to be multi-lingual? What if it gets vandalized then can you or your estate say well that sign would have saved his life?

[lemon boy]

Query:

If you're in favor of a general sign warning people about the dangers they are about to encounter, why would you not favor the next logical step of adding the CAIC Avy Rose and daily report?

If providing a comparatively general and limited amount of information is good then wouldn't providing the basic info that 99% of experienced BC users rely on every day even gooderer?

Just a thought on the matter, generally I'd support a sign but am 45% cynical as to its positive benefits. I still think that my sign linking BC equipment usage to scoring rides would be more effective :

[Cornholio]

You are in deadly avalanche terrain.

If you proceed beyond this point without avalanche training, rescue gear, and backcountry partners, you are taking a life-threatening risk that adds to the hazard of those around you.

** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.

Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.

[Cornholio]

You want editing? Fine.

I do not favor the daily updated rose. It's too simple.

I do favor the addition of "Call CAIC for today's snow hazard report."

[Yossarian]

You are in deadly avalanche terrain.

If you proceed beyond this point without avalanche training, rescue gear, and backcountry partners, you are taking a life-threatening risk that adds to the hazard of those around you.

** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.

Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.

That's what I'm fuggin talking about!

[Ireallyliketoski2]

How about this, getting rid of the "if you proceed beyond this point without avalanche training, rescue gear, and backcountry partners" These things help to mitigate but do not eliminate the risk.

"You are now entering hazardous snow avalanche terrain. If you proceed beyond this point, you are taking a life-threatening risk which may affect others as well as yourself. ** people have died at Berthoud Pass in avalanche-related accidents since 19**. Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.

For information on avalanche education, contact the Colorado Avalanche Information Center."

[jump]

Definately a good idea.

Something like this gets the idea across well.



Without the leaving the ski resort bit of course.

[Cornholio]

IRLTS makes a good point.

Just carrying a beacon and stuff doesn't really do much to relieve the risk.

[Yossarian]

We can probably provide an outline at best of what to say to USFS and their myriad of people. Something like this would have to go through them and they and their legal people would be the ultimate editor. Our thoughts and verbage are an input for sure, but its still our thoughts. Not the type of thing to fly in equal access country is it?

Of course then you have more shit being put up in the wild. What's next-Your 4by must be this tall to access this trail? To shoot this animal your cartridge must be this big (have a pic of various wildlife with recommended cartridges). Is this really the type of thing or is it a you're a big kid, act like one? I don't know one way or the other the answer, just asking the question. Do we want the outdoors to look like Have You Dug Wall Drug? Would it need to be multi-lingual? What if it gets vandalized then can you or your estate say well that sign would have saved his life?

excellent, excellent questions/points.

But lets joust for a just a moment:

First, it's hardly the wilderness. Sadly. It's an overstuffed parking lot with lots of mediocre, easy access, short hit, road skiing. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but let's call a spade a spade.

Second, yeah, it could get vandalized, it could get burned down, I know. But something is better than nothing, you don't get to take money with you when ou die so you may as well spend it on time, life, or both, so I'd rather do it and rebuild it each year than not do it all.

Clearly, I'm an optimist at heart.

So, en guarde? A response? Keep the debate flowing...I got to do some work for a while...

[Cornholio]

The collection of Hazard and Skull 'n Crossbones and YOU COULD DIE signs is effective, but will never fly aesthetically on the shoulder of one of CO's most heavily travelled roads.

Even the most prettiest sign will, amazingly, be a red tape nightmare.

[Yossarian]

Trying is better than not trying.

Ever the optimist.

But IRLTS, good point...
Still, a tangible reminder to bring the gear would be nice somehow...

[cj001f]

Even the most prettiest sign will, amazingly, be a red tape nightmare.

Hmm. I'm thinking a wildcat sign might be the better way to go.

If/When it's removed notify the local news station - they may give you more publicity than you could hope for otherwise. Especially given recent events.

[Yossarian]

So here's the current proposal then:

You are in deadly avalanche terrain.

If you proceed beyond this point, you are taking a life-threatening risk which may affect others as well as yourself.

** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.

Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.

[Yossarian]

Hmm. I'm thinking a wildcat sign might be the better way to go.

If/When it's removed notify the local news station - they may give you more publicity than you could hope for otherwise. Especially given recent events.

Now that's some smart thinking. I like it. Of course, this thread may need to self-destruct at some point...but keep talking for now...

[Cornholio]

Hmm. I do like *some* mention of the necessity of the gear, no?

[Cornholio]

You are in deadly avalanche terrain.

If you proceed beyond this point, you are taking a life-threatening risk that adds to the hazard of those around you.

Always travel with a partner, rescue equipment, and the knowledge to use it.

** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.

Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.

[The Reverend Floater]

So here's the current proposal then:

You are in deadly avalanche terrain.

If you proceed beyond this point, you are taking a life-threatening risk which may affect others as well as yourself.

** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.

Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.

We have these signs everywhere. 2 folks died last year, regardless, but there's no telling how many people were a bit more cautious because of it.

[HyRUPz]

These "Avie Warning" signs should go up statewide - all over, everywhere. For example: Berthoud, Independence, Loveland, Vail, all road accessed passes with "killer" terrain ...

A consistent, state funded program to warn skiers that miscalculations and wrecklesness can prove deadly - public service announcements showing the families and friends that are left behind ...

I like: YOU CAN DIE, skull/crossbone ... pretty clear, Danger ahead

[Yossarian]

You are in deadly avalanche terrain.

If you proceed beyond this point, you are taking a life-threatening risk which may affect others as well as yourself.

** people have died here in avalanche-related accidents since 19**.

Dangerous avalanches can occur with minimal snow cover - ALWAYS put safety first.

Do you have the right Training, Team, and Tools?