Colorado Maggots: Ref C and D (NSR)

[El Kabong]

Well the election is just around the corner so I though I would bring up C and D. This election has the chance to cause some major changes in Colorado. If C and D doesnt pass, there will have to be a serious reorganization of how health care and education are funded in Colorado. Colorado already has some of the lowest per capita spending in the nation when it comes to funding higher education and public health care. If C and D does not pass, tuitions for higher education will skyrocket and there the chance of many smaller community colleges closing. I know as a medical student here, my tuition will rise 80% next year, making it very hard to continue school. As a state with one of the highest per capita rates of a college education it will be a shame to see Coloradans no longer be able to receive a college education for solely monetary reasons.

In terms of health care, the failure of C and D will cause there to be serious cuts in funding for the neediest people in Colorado. We already have one of the bottom 5 childhood immunization rates in the country and barebones medicaid funding, and it will be scary to see where things go from here. There is a lot of back and forth going on about the cost of the referendum, the numbers I have heard is about a 1000 dollars per family total for the next five years after which we will return to the current tax plan. For the benefits in terms of education and health care, not to mention infrastructure and human services, it seems to be a small price to pay. Overall though, I just have to encourage people to get out and vote, no matter what. It would be a shame to have such a huge change occur in Colorado when only 25% of the population votes.

here are some websites

for:
www.voteyesonC-D.com

against:
www.taxincrease.org


Just thought I would bring it up and I would love to hear other Coloradans views of the issue.

[pde20]

Well the election is just around the corner so I though I would bring up C and D. This election has the chance to cause some major changes in Colorado. If C and D doesnt pass, there will have to be a serious reorganization of how health care and education are funded in Colorado. Colorado already has some of the lowest per capita spending in the nation when it comes to funding higher education and public health care. If C and D does not pass, tuitions for higher education will skyrocket and there the chance of many smaller community colleges closing. I know as a medical student here, my tuition will rise 80% next year, making it very hard to continue school. As a state with one of the highest per capita rates of a college education it will be a shame to see Coloradans no longer be able to receive a college education for solely monetary reasons.

In terms of health care, the failure of C and D will cause there to be serious cuts in funding for the neediest people in Colorado. We already have one of the bottom 5 childhood immunization rates in the country and barebones medicaid funding, and it will be scary to see where things go from here. There is a lot of back and forth going on about the cost of the referendum, the numbers I have heard is about a 1000 dollars per family total for the next five years after which we will return to the current tax plan. For the benefits in terms of education and health care, not to mention infrastructure and human services, it seems to be a small price to pay. Overall though, I just have to encourage people to get out and vote, no matter what. It would be a shame to have such a huge change occur in Colorado when only 25% of the population votes.

here are some websites

for:
www.voteyesonC-D.com

against:
www.taxincrease.org


Just thought I would bring it up and I would love to hear other Coloradans views of the issue.

A little too involved for this crowd apparently or wrong forum ....but i am a political weenie so I'll play. I just completed my mail in ballot. If C & D fail, we will have government funding by referendum for the next 3-4 years until steam for the next swipe at either TABOR or Amendment 23 is sufficient. Basically every thing that needs attention will have to fight it out for surplus state revenue every election or funding cycle. So, schools too expensive for students and/or closing? The education lobby will have to go to the voters to keep community colleges open. Bridges falling down (they already are)? Transportation dudes will have to beg for $$. And on and on. This is supposedly what we elect thes motherfuckers to do for us is prioritize and properly fund the basic services of government such that Colorado can remain a competitive state in terms of education, quality of life, economics etc. The anti side have no interest in a healthy and functional state, they are pure idealogues whose only guiding principle is that government sholuld be starved regardless of the consequences or reality of what that looks like. We have already seen the end results of this line of thinking at the national level in a number of instnaces, most notably and recently in New Orleans with a gutted and worthelss FEMA and an underfunded Army Corps. Result? The poor drown and a city is rendered uninhabitable. Similar results will continue to crop up at different scales so long as this crowd (Caldara, Norquist, Club for Growth morons) push their bullshit.

John Caldera plays the trombone on Blurred Elevens girzzly ass. The man is borderline evil.

[Elkhound Odin]

I haven't seen any adds from the anti C&D crowd with examples of wasteful state spending. Unless they can spoonfeed me a list, I will assume the state is making proper expeditures and needs more money to maintance the infrastructure.

[meatdrink9]

My wife voted for it. I voted against it.

El Kabong, your post seems pretty irrational and unfounded as to all the EXISTING PROGRAMS that will instantly fall apart if we don't pass NEW TAXES.

When I read through the manual provided with my ballot through the mail it looked pretty shady. They start the desciption "Without raising taxes....." Then as you scan further you see things like "allow the state to keep SURPLUS taxes ABOVE the constitutional limit of...(some unglodly high number I can't remember)". So basically it sounded like you're giving the state your refund. I'm in the camp that the politicians get to choose what they fund. If they choose to fund stupid projects we shouldn't have to pay more when they whip out the issues with heart strings they should have funded better in the first place. If those issues are in trouble they're to blame. The amount of money they were going to collect was in or above the 10's of billions of dollars (again, can't remember the exact number).

What's even worse about the bill is that they claim it's for all these noble causes they should've already been funding, but then at the bottom of the description it says "No more than 25% of the money raised by C+D will be spent on projects not listed above." So in other words they use all these sensitive issues to raise taxes and then they're going to take 25% of it spend on other stuff again (not teachers and schools). The shit they should've been funding in the first place. Fuck them.

Then you get to the issue where you can pass another similar tax that will begin in 2015. Talk about taxation without representation. It seems like people living in the area and voting a little closer to 2015 might want to have a say in that.

I did vote for the marijuana posession law.

[mr_gyptian]

My wife voted for it. I voted against it.

El Kabong, your post seems pretty irrational and unfounded as to all the EXISTING PROGRAMS that will instantly fall apart if we don't pass NEW TAXES.

When I read through the manual provided with my ballot through the mail it looked pretty shady. They start the desciption "Without raising taxes....." Then as you scan further you see things like "allow the state to keep SURPLUS taxes ABOVE the constitutional limit of...(some unglodly high number I can't remember)". So basically it sounded like you're giving the state your refund. I'm in the camp that the politicians get to choose what they fund. If they choose to fund stupid projects we shouldn't have to pay more when they whip out the issues with heart strings they should have funded better in the first place. If those issues are in trouble they're to blame. The amount of money they were going to collect was in or above the 10's of billions of dollars (again, can't remember the exact number).

What's even worse about the bill is that they claim it's for all these noble causes they should've already been funding, but then at the bottom of the description it says "No more than 25% of the money raised by C+D will be spent on projects not listed above." So in other words they use all these sensitive issues to raise taxes and then they're going to take 25% of it spend on other stuff again (not teachers and schools). The shit they should've been funding in the first place. Fuck them.

Then you get to the issue where you can pass another similar tax that will begin in 2015. Talk about taxation without representation. It seems like people living in the area and voting a little closer to 2015 might want to have a say in that.

I did vote for the marijuana posession law.

well said. i'm curious how with all these shortages the largest highway project in state history (TREX) is in progress. To boot, another one in Colorado Springs doing the same highway widening is beginning. RTD light rail stops age sprouting up everywhere. The price of higher education is rising every where, but so is the access to financial aid in its various forms.

barely squeaking by, I say. George Will wrote an article a couple of weeks ago saying it was ok to vote for C&D and that it wasn't a tax raise. I don't really care about the $283 dollars I would get in the refund. I do care about giving more money to a state legislature that deems programs like Keg Tracking of utmost importance.

[funkendrenchman]

I haven't seen any adds from the anti C&D crowd with examples of wasteful state spending. Unless they can spoonfeed me a list, I will assume the state is making proper expeditures and needs more money to maintance the infrastructure.

The add I saw said something to the extent of,

"You know who came up with C and D? Politicians... and politicians find ways to waste your money."

Pretty convincing argument there.

[Kya]

I voted for both. These really are things tax dollars need to be spent on.

I always find it interesting that it is okay for tax dollars to build a multi-million dollar football stadium for millionaires, but when something important like this comes up the people have a hard time deciding

[El Kabong]

I am not going to argue with the fact of whether or not this is a tax increase. I think it is true that the raise money "without a tax increase" statement is a little misleading, you will pay more in taxes, i never said you wouldnt in what i wrote. However, that doesnt take away from the fact that this issue needs to pass.

essentially the tabor ammendment says that CO can keep a certain amount of money each year to spend on the state. the problem is that the amount collected can only go up a certain percentage based on the amount collected the year before. The problem is that during the recession in 2001-2003 revenue went way down causing all state programs to make significant cuts in what they spent. Now that the economy is generally going up again everyone is making more money, but the state can only keep a percentage more based on the revenue it collected during the recession. All the ref asks for is to be able to take in a little more to make up for what had to be cut in the recession. So say you are making 8% more a year than you were in 2002, the state can only take in say 3% revenue because of TABOR. (those numbers arent exact but it is the idea) So your income has gone up and you are able to recover from what you werent able to do during the recession but the state is not able to keep up in its revenue collected to make up for the cuts that were made in the past. This is only a temporary relief and we will go back to the old plan in 2011.

As for the arguement about how Trex and such can be happening if things are so short, most of the current capitol projects like that already were in place and funded before the recession, so they dont really affect what is going on here.

MD9, it is a shame that your taking the time to read the small print kind of confuses the situatuion. But the fact that it is a little misleading doenst take away from the fact that shit is going to go down the tubes without C and D.

[powderfarmer]

I plan on voting for c and d. In an over simplified view here are my thoughts. if we don't fix things now, how much more will it cost in 10 or 15 years? An example I thought was semi relevant was to ask a NO resident the true cost of cheap/unkempt levy's in the south? BTW little drunk, but I know what I am trying to say.

[KillingCokes]

I voted for both. These really are things tax dollars need to be spent on.

I always find it interesting that it is okay for tax dollars to build a multi-million dollar football stadium for millionaires, but when something important like this comes up the people have a hard time deciding

It's like that old anti drug commercial for coke. If we build it more people will spend more money and we'll earn more and the vicious circle continues. The conservatives won a victory when all those democrats were killed in New Orleans. They might even take Louisiana this year. Do you think if a conservative's daughter got killed by a collapsed bridge that the conservative would sue? HUMMMM?

Higher education is un-American. Education is only for people who can afford it. Screw everyone else. If you can't afford it I'll give you a meaningless job that won't allow you to ever get ahead. If you were to go to school you might actually be able to get ahead in life and that would cut into my profits. Besides I can't get past creation and the word of some long hair from 2000 years ago, they teach evolution in them Colleges. 53% of americans believe that the story of creation in the bible is the exact truth. What percentage did bush win by?

The direction of this country is really scary. We aren't even in the top 10 anymore in technology. SAD. NO INVESTMENT, NO FUTURE. SHORT TERM GREED LEADS TO LONG TERM FAILURE.

[GFP]

I attended an information session on C&D with state senators Bob Bacon (spoke for C&D) and Shawn Mitchell (spoke against C&D) about three weeks ago. These are the general points I came away with:

The two big problems I see with C are:

(1) The correction to the TABOR ratchet affect that El Kabong explains above is too loose. By suspending TABOR for five years, the state is free to raise taxes at any rate it chooses per year (someone correct me if that's wrong, but that's what I took away). At the end of the five years, TABOR will go back into effect based on the highest tax revenue collected during any single year of the five years w/o TABOR restrictions. Since there is no restriction on how high the tax rate can rise by 2010 under C, the impacts of C have the potential to last long after 2011 when TABOR goes back into affect. The TABOR limitations will go back into effect based on an arbitrarily high state income tax figure. In essence, C implements the reverse ratchet effect that TABOR imposed.

(2) There is no guarantee that revenue from C will go to the causes that are advertised (higher ed in particular). The current state legislature has said that they intend to spend percentages of C revenue on ed and all the other problem areas that you've seen advertised, but future legislatures are under no obligation to adhere to the advertised earmarks for C&D dollars. There have already been a bunch of pet projects introduced in the legislature that are contingent on funding from C's passing.

Having said all that, I do believe that some parts of state government are in a financial crisis. We do have an urgent need to increase spending on state universities in particular. No one wants to see state tuitions jump (although I highly doubt that they will jump 80%)

So I'm still undecided about C&D. I'm a part time CSU student, and I know plenty of other students. I have a substantial stake in C&D passing but I don't think they are the best solution for the current problem.

[meatdrink9]

I voted for both. These really are things tax dollars need to be spent on.

I always find it interesting that it is okay for tax dollars to build a multi-million dollar football stadium for millionaires, but when something important like this comes up the people have a hard time deciding

Have you read the bill? Do you not understand that you and I basically said the same thing? My position is that our taxes are already spent poorly (read stadium for millionaires). So after those responsible for budget allocations have wasted money on projects like this they come crying to us with "you're starving the teachers" messages to raise taxes that aren't necessarily going to be used for education when they chose where the money went in the first place. Not us. It's shady as hell, but I can see how you would have a vested interest.

[jibij]

Denver voters approved the tax increase to build the stadium. Not the politicians. It's frustrating when voters will slam-dunk a project like that, but basic govt. needs are a tougher sell.

The perception that govt. is just a bunch of fatcats blowing through your money as fast as they can is tough to shake.

[Crinkle]

I too spent the time to read the bill. What disturbed me the most is that when you read it, it falls way short on specifics of where the money will go. Lots of generalizations. It leaves a lot of room for misinterpreation or for other evils (lobbyists) to take advantage of. Politicians will push for the money to be spent on thier projects that support thier party and don't necessarily do the best good for the people of CO. Yes there are certain projects some money is earmarked for, but when I don't see it clearly written where the money will go, i wonder how much do they really need?

Ref D is just a piggy back to C to BORROW more money and pay back at later time, making the long run more costly for tax payers.

I do agree that things need to change, but if it is such dire straights, lets see a plan on how that money will be best used. Tough when Fast-tracks and T-Rex going full force.

[Elkhound Odin]

.....

I do agree that things need to change, but if it is such dire straights, lets see a plan on how that money will be best used.

Seeing who supports C&D lets you know where the money is going to go..Asphalt companies, concrete companies, construction companies, bond brokers, kick backs to politicians supporting the referendums, etc. The usual suspects.

[Foggy_Goggles]

There is a reason C & D are vague when discusssing what the $ will be spent on. It's a funding initiative, not a referendum for a specific project. Government is inherently wastefull so it makes sense to reduce the size of there checkbook. However revenues are dependent on the economic cycle because of things like sales tax. What Tabor does is tie the revenue stream to the economic cycle while core expenditures (schools, hospitals etc.) stay flat. What the state should do is run a surplus when times are good to cover the shortfall when times are bad (rainy day fund). C & D is less about voting to spend money and more about working to construct a system where Colorado can succeed going forward. Whether it passes or not, the pork will unfortunatley remain. If it fails, the budget cuts will be real. I just with we could eliminate the inefficiencies of government and reduce these problems. Colorado's education system is in total disrepair and that concerns me. An educated population is the best investment you can make in the future.

[Kya]

Denver voters approved the tax increase to build the stadium. Not the politicians. It's frustrating when voters will slam-dunk a project like that, but basic govt. needs are a tougher sell....

Exactly! That is just so f....d up. I don't understand the way "we the people" think.

[Kya]

Have you read the bill? Do you not understand that you and I basically said the same thing? My position is that our taxes are already spent poorly (read stadium for millionaires). So after those responsible for budget allocations have wasted money on projects like this they come crying to us with "you're starving the teachers" messages to raise taxes that aren't necessarily going to be used for education when they chose where the money went in the first place. Not us. It's shady as hell, but I can see how you would have a vested interest.

I read it. All I know is that each year at my school (yes I'm a teacher) our state funding goes down, my class size goes up, and I'm excpected to have all my students score an advanced score on the CSAP. If this vote does not pass, our funding and budget again will drop dramatically. I voted to basically help my school and all of Colorado's schools, because I will see first hand the concequences.

Also, its not about teacher salaries and HDTVs in the teacher's lounge. Its about class sizes, bus routes, gas $ for busses, plumbing in a 50 year old school, text books and such supplies.

I say we pass the vote and then vote out these retarded Republicans and Democrats so they can't f..k it all up again.

[DJMingus]

Have you read the bill? Do you not understand that you and I basically said the same thing? My position is that our taxes are already spent poorly (read stadium for millionaires). So after those responsible for budget allocations have wasted money on projects like this they come crying to us with "you're starving the teachers" messages to raise taxes that aren't necessarily going to be used for education when they chose where the money went in the first place. Not us. It's shady as hell, but I can see how you would have a vested interest.

"Those responsible for budget allocations" have no say in the stadium - the voters (amazingly) passed the initiative that spends tax dollars on Bowlen's personal business, not the legislature.

[DJMingus]

well said. i'm curious how with all these shortages the largest highway project in state history (TREX) is in progress. To boot, another one in Colorado Springs doing the same highway widening is beginning. RTD light rail stops age sprouting up everywhere. The price of higher education is rising every where, but so is the access to financial aid in its various forms.

barely squeaking by, I say. George Will wrote an article a couple of weeks ago saying it was ok to vote for C&D and that it wasn't a tax raise. I don't really care about the $283 dollars I would get in the refund. I do care about giving more money to a state legislature that deems programs like Keg Tracking of utmost importance.

I-25 - most of that money comes from federal taxes, not Colorado. TREX was decided on many years ago, like at least ten, and before the current budget situation. I'm sure there have been lots of other road projects tabled recently due to the downturn in tax income.

[meatdrink9]

Sorry, I wasn't here when the stadium vote went down. Not something I would have voted for either.

[jibij]

Government is inherently wastefull so it makes sense to reduce the size of there checkbook.

Fog-dood, I dig you, but statements like that fry me.

I've worked with and for local and state government for the last 20 years. During the last 10 I've also worked with a lot of large and medium corps. In my experience, no organization is more wasteful than big business. A local/state govt. project would be lucky to get 1/3rd of the budget that an identical project at a mega-corp would get. Nowhere else have I found people that have mastered the art of "getting by" and "making do" like state and local government. No other organization will squeeze every last nickle out of a project like them. How many big businesses run like that? Granted, govt. can't run with extravagant budgets like big-business does because it's tax-based and not investment-based. However, people expect govt. to operate like a business and when it can't it's deemed a failure.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Fog-dood, I dig you, but statements like that fry me.

Dude...I probably didn't make my point very well. On a micro level, no doubt parts of government can and are very frugal and efficienct. For-profit business wastes a tremendous amout of money as well. The distinction is two fold. A. For profit entities can do what ever their shareholders deem an acceptable use of the money, gubment is spending my money B. Politicians ain't accountable, there is no performance standard. Fuck it up in 05, the state will still be here getting the same fundage in 06. It is not this way in business. For the record, I'm in support of C & D and think that on the whole Colorado's taxes are pretty acceptable.

[summit]

Anyone who votes yes is a FUCKING COMMUNIST!

[jibij]

On a micro level, no doubt parts of government can and are very frugal and efficienct.

I knew you weren't being malicious, but the perception that govt. is wasteful by nature is what keeps States and Locals constantly scratching for money. (That's a gross oversimplificaction, but you get the picture)

Screwups and waste at the Federal level get tons of media attention and that causes a nasty trickle-down when States and Locals need money. Most people figure that govt. is govt. and they're all just pissing away my money. The big-budget branches of the Feds (i.e. military) operate in a whole different world than everybody else.