yurp resorts don't have owners

**verbier61** · 10-07-2005, 06:42 AM

everytime I read threads like "mammoth sold" or "JH owner(s?) won't replace the tram" I'd like to mention that yurp resorts don't have owners. They might have special rules (in zermatt, for instance, apts or chalets are not sold to foreigners), but - more or less - all big issues are managed by the community (whatever it means the elected major and her/his staff or the elected development society, etc....). They make proposals and deals with local autorities (regions, cantons, whatever).
This is not always safe (see for instance G3000 lift society bankrupt, or the bankrupt of the lift society in macugnaga, or the neverending litigation between french lift owners and local autorities in courmayeur), but prolly safer than depending on a single owner (or a single company). Or not ?

**bad_roo** · 10-07-2005, 07:12 AM

I think you need to draw a distinction between established mountain villages and new developments such as Arc 1950, Valfrejus etc.

**edg** · 10-07-2005, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by bad_roo

I think you need to draw a distinction between established mountain villages and new developments such as Arc 1950, Valfrejus etc.

Isn't the Les Arcs area run on permission of the Bourg St Maurice commmune?

edg

**schindlerpiste** · 10-07-2005, 07:30 AM

Ski area ownership in europe vs. the USA is but one example of the difference between socialistic and capitalistic societies. Generally, at the top areas in Europe (i.e. Chamonix, Zermatt, St. Anton), lift tickets cost approx. Euro 27-30/day. In the USA, lift tickets at comparable areas (JH, Vail, Alta/bird), lift passes run about $60. Also, there is a HUGE difference in the cost of private lessons. In St. ANton, I was paying about $125/day for privates for my kids. At my home mountain in UT, the same private lesson costs $500+. (I'm glad that my kids learned to ski in Austria).
There are always going to be problems with any business run by socialists; however, this usally benefits the general public.

**verbier61** · 10-07-2005, 07:47 AM

socialistic?

**verbier61** · 10-07-2005, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

Ski area ownership in europe vs. the USA is but one example of the difference between socialistic and capitalistic societies. Generally, at the top areas in Europe (i.e. Chamonix, Zermatt, St. Anton), lift tickets cost approx. Euro 27-30/day

unfortunately, I think it's no more true. Now larger places are 35-45 euro/day (42-50 $, more or less). Roo skied extensively US vs yurp so he knows better

**TeleAl** · 10-07-2005, 08:03 AM

Not sure where this thread is going, but given the choice between :

paying higher lift prices,
figuring out my own private transport to get there,
figuring out where to sleep without a govt youth hostel around, etc.

vs.

paying less, getting more, and affording it.

I'll take Door#2.

As for the management of the resorts,
they make money here, and they make money there.

I don't know who owns what, but I see plenty of people making a killing
off the deal either by getting public funds to pay for lift operations
(resulting in lower passes for the locals and higher profits for the management)
or by taking a nice salary even if the operation goes under.

And correct me if I am wrong,
but isn't Vail about $75/day? And Verbier 62 CHF/day?

**schindlerpiste** · 10-07-2005, 08:16 AM

I think that 7 day passes at both, St. Anton and Chamonix are about Euro 200. That is about $35USD/day. Other than Alta and the BCC areas, I know no other areas in the USA that are that reasonable. Dang, in order to ski for $35/day in CO., UT or WY, the general public must buy a seasons pass and ski 30-35 days.

**verbier61** · 10-07-2005, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by TeleAl

And correct me if I am wrong,
but isn't Vail about $75/day? And Verbier 62 CHF/day?

right for verbier. 62 CHF, which means 48 $.

and yes, for whose who didn't realize it before, I might be defined socialistic by schindlerpistes. The final question "or not?" was rhetorical.

**bad_roo** · 10-07-2005, 08:32 AM

Start calculating number of lifts per dollar price of lift passes and there's really no comparison. I'm constantly amazed that a ski area with 100-200 modern lifts like the Trois Vallees or L'Espace Killy is cheaper to buy a pass at than a US backwater with six chairs.

**Tippster** · 10-07-2005, 08:53 AM

OK, we get it. Europe is better than the US. So Roo, when can we expect you over here this year... AGAIN?

**supercastor** · 10-07-2005, 08:56 AM

I don't know what you mean by "owner" but in France, AFAIK, a lot of resorts are owned by companies (i.e. Altiservice in the pyrénées, or Compagnie du Mont Blanc in the Alps). It's true that there remains a lot of resorts run by mountain town or villages, but 1/ that does not always mean better quality of service (althought it may be VERY good for local freeriders, I won't elaborate) 2/ I think that the trend goes more and more to selling the business to large companies, mostly because of security reasons (one avalanche can ruin such a town, a larger company can cope with this kind of issue better).

the village-run resort where I used to go, Piau Engaly (1200m. of vertical drop, okay it's a small one, but with a large variety of unridden slopes) sell the student pass 12,5€ a day (season pass : 360€). And people are complaining because of the .5 rising of last year (they put 2 high speed 6 chairs in the meantime). The village (Aragnouet) has maybe 500 inhabitants...

First time I checked the pass prices at JH, I was astounded. That's the number one reason I'm delaying my 6 month trip in the US of A for 6 years now

BTW : how hard is it to cheat on lift passes in the US/canada? (the typical french question, sorry).

**bad_roo** · 10-07-2005, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Tippster

OK, we get it. Europe is better than the US. So Roo, when can we expect you over here this year... AGAIN?

You can't buy a decent burger in Europe.

**verbier61** · 10-07-2005, 09:19 AM

castor, I might be totally wrong, but AFAIK yurp corporates like CDA own stock in the lift, but they do not own resorts.... or not?
for instance, CDA has some 30% of stocks in televerbier, which means they make a lot of money with verbier lift, but they can not actually control what verbier people want to do, because the val de bagnes commune (local - elected - authority) plus a number of local investors still own more stock than CDA.

**schindlerpiste** · 10-07-2005, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by bad_roo

You can't buy a decent burger in Europe.

No. But they certainly make up for it in the quality of their bier, wurst (where the fuck is an umlaut when you need it?) and Kaiserschmarrn.

**smmokan** · 10-07-2005, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

I think that 7 day passes at both, St. Anton and Chamonix are about Euro 200. That is about $35USD/day. Other than Alta and the BCC areas, I know no other areas in the USA that are that reasonable. Dang, in order to ski for $35/day in CO., UT or WY, the general public must buy a seasons pass and ski 30-35 days.

Actually, there are plenty of places right here in CO. Wolf Creek is $41/day. Loveland is around that- if you get a Loveland Card (which is free), its about $27-30/day. At Telluride, they had transferrable 5-packs for $50/day. You just have to know where to look. Paying window price for a ticket is something tourists do.

**schindlerpiste** · 10-07-2005, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Lloyd Christmas

Actually, there are plenty of places right here in CO. Wolf Creek is $41/day. Loveland is around that- if you get a Loveland Card (which is free), its about $27-30/day. At Telluride, they had transferrable 5-packs for $50/day. You just have to know where to look. Paying window price for a ticket is something tourists do.

This may be, but you need a basis for comparison. The point is that If a tourist is going to ski for a week or a month in europe, lift tickets will be much cheaper than it would be for that same tourist to ski for a week or month at say Park City, Aspen, Vail, etc. That's all I'm sayin mang.

**smmokan** · 10-07-2005, 09:56 AM

I completely agree with you there.

**Tippster** · 10-07-2005, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

No. But they certainly make up for it in the quality of their bier, wurst (where the fuck is an umlaut when you need it?) and Kaiserschmarrn.

There's no umlaut in Wurst. Now the plural, Würste, does have one.

(the character map is your friend.

)

**edg** · 10-07-2005, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Tippster

There's no umlaut in Wurst. Now the plural, Würste, does have one.

(the character map is your friend.

)

I feel benvolent. I am donating an umlaut for the good of the board.

ü

Wow, that warm buzz is nice.

edg

**bad_roo** · 10-07-2005, 10:16 AM

ö

I'm a giving guy too.

**Lostinthetrees** · 10-07-2005, 10:57 AM

Yes, Euro resorts have owners.

Sorry to say that everytime I have gotten into a discussion w/ my fellow Americans about land/property being owned by the "commune" the hair on the backs of their necks begins to stand on end.

Most cannot get beyond the sound of the word w/o taking time to understand the system, both pluses and minuses.

It does work and benefit the "commune"; that is to say the community. Forest land, grazing land (the alpage...Alpes), water rights, electrical production, etc are owned and managed for the benefit of those that live in the commune. Communal lands.

It is still private enterprise. The primary stockholders are the people who live in the commune...sorry community. That is one reason you see some many 2nd and 3rd tier ski stations over here. They exist because the community makes money from attracting tourists who use the hotels, restos, drink beer, buy postcards and cowbells.

It think the closest you could come to the concept in the States is that ski station outside of Denver that you can take a train to. Sorry, forgot the name.

Now, the US mega-resorts... don't let me get started