Ebikes on forest service land?

[Name Redacted]

Says the guy who thinks emtb's are closer to a motoX than a mtb Sent from my SM-S711W using TGR Forums mobile app

It isn't that I think that way, it is that that is the way they are treated under curent national forest service rules in my area.
I think that if they want to ride the non-motorized trails, they need to put some skin in the game as far a funding and maintenance in order to overcome the overwhelming assumption that they cause more damage to the trails than analog bikes. Some good will and organization could go a long way. But that'll be a long way off because they just act like they are entittled to the trails because they are there and other long time, active users disagree with that.

[Name Redacted]

It's the lack of understanding the roots and the essence of what mtb actually is that's creating the problem in my mind. These people buying eebs that have never ridden a regular mtb or researches anything about them are acting like idiots. Obviously not all, but it's the idiots that always stand out. I'm not sure what the answer is aside from schooling them (as kind as possible) when you see them being ignorant morans.

Agree, they have no history or community. There are no Emtb clubs that I know of, no organization, and no relationship with the NFS, and therefore no voice so they will continue to just get put where the analog groups think they should be. Our local mtb group has basically shunned them and said they'll get no support. So I see their only way forward to be buying their way in through OHV permits or creating a new funding machanism that can give them a reason to be justified in using non-motorized trails. Until then, they'll be seen as pariahs, and every misstep and every time they are seen where they shouldn't be, will count against them.

[toast2266]

Mountain bikers are concerned about ebike traffic because that extra traffic will degrade the trails. Those concerns are both coherent and relatively easy to address through various funding mechanisms.

But realistically, I think the main thing holding ebike access back is an ill-defined concern from the crusty old hiker crowd. At least with the Forest Service, it's not mountain bikers that have sway, it's the old guard that holds a vague wilderness ethic that's non specific but is definitely opposed to motors. The only realistic way that I see ebikers overcoming that is through relentless badgering. Ebikers would really like mountain bikers to assist in that badgering, but that's not really happening for all the reasons discussed in this thread.

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[XXX-er]

if you got them 70 lb Eebs with the hub motors on your trails maybe they are not very mtn bike cuz around here none of them have the skills to come in the arean and when i thik about those bikes I donnot think i would eitehr SO we just dont see them like zero chinesium mtn bikes driven by guys in bermuda shorts wearing sandals with white socks smoking a dart ever period

I dont see people who have never ridden an acoustic mtn bike buying a real Eeb cuz its too expensive its mostly older folks who have already been on mtn bikes will ask questions and then show up at the area on a new Eeb. Yesturday I let a long time road/ triathelete/ mtn bike bud try my Vala for 100 ft around the P-lot and that was enough for him to show up a little later in my driveway demoing a new real Eab from the bike shop I think how it will shake out is more and more people will just show up riding Eebs

a local senior planner emeritus ( cool guy) told me we have to wait till the old hikers die off so we can hook up the mtb/ hiking/ xc ski areas on crown land out side of town. The hikers are all old women they are already so old I know some of them who have passed all the men are dead or infirm so at home, the local hikers are unable to take care of their trails so its only a matter of time ... signed an Eeber in BC just waiting old hikers to die

[Dantheman]

But realistically, I think the main thing holding ebike access back is an ill-defined concern from the crusty old hiker crowd. At least with the Forest Service, it's not mountain bikers that have sway, it's the old guard that holds a vague wilderness ethic that's non specific but is definitely opposed to motors. The only realistic way that I see ebikers overcoming that is through relentless badgering. Ebikers would really like mountain bikers to assist in that badgering, but that's not really happening for all the reasons discussed in this thread.

There's also a subset of the crusty hiker crowd that is salivating at the possibility of using ebikes as a cudgel to push bikes out of certain areas entirely without the effort of creating designated Wilderness and WSAs.

I dont see people who have never ridden an acoustic mtn bike buying a real Eeb cuz its too expensive its mostly older folks who have already been on mtn bikes will ask questions and then show up on a new Eeb

Just last week I had lunch with a guy who got into mountain biking specifically because of ebikes. Lawyer, late 50s or early 60s, zero qualms about riding his eeb wherever regardless of regs which was humorous considering his profession. He is surely not the only one.

[XXX-er]

Lawyers know which laws TO ignore and as a lawyer he could probably give you that quote about the law being an ass and besides I assume he was American SO yer lucky he didnt pull out his glock and put a cap in your ass

[mcski]

There's also a subset of the crusty hiker crowd that is salivating at the possibility of using ebikes as a cudgel to push bikes out of certain areas entirely without the effort of creating designated Wilderness and WSAs.
.

This is my primary fear when I see e-bikes poaching trails especially as they become harder to distinguish from acoustics at first glance that since too many resources would be required to enforce specifically all bikes would get banned

[XXX-er]

Gee its almost like all mtn bikers both acoustic or moped should band togetehr as one big voice/ lobby cuz as i understand it ever one is just ignoring Eeb closures anyhow ?

a few years ago some guy with the Cali plates walks up and asks if Eebs are ok and I said yeah man the builders, the VP, all the cool kids ride Eeb so no problem man Buddy was an Auz and later i found out his wife is Canadian so they are scoping places to move that are not in America cuz why would you live down there if you dina have to eh ?

A year later I meet him in the craft brew but dont remember buddy he sez " I told him Eebs are cool so they like the town , sold out of Bend to move here made LARGECOIN selling the house " and so we became craftbrewbro's klinking glasses eh his wife is (what else from bend) a breath coach

When he came over to talk to me his wife said leave that guy alone we do not wana hassle from the locals which is of course lol funny !

[Dantheman]

This is my primary fear when I see e-bikes poaching trails especially as they become harder to distinguish from acoustics at first glance that since too many resources would be required to enforce specifically all bikes would get banned

Ever increasing share of the market, ever harder to distinguish from non-eebs, ever more powerful, no resources for enforcement, etc., it is not hard to see how some overworked USFS/BLM district manager would take the easy way out. The central Wasatch already has crowding issues and a lot of non-motorized/non-Wilderness trails that are at serious risk from just such a decision. We also have established well-organized well-funded advocacy orgs that are dominated by the crusty old hiker demo and would love an excuse to boot bikes from several marquee trails. They have already used the proliferation of ebikes as one of their arguments to derail implementation of the SLC Foothills Trail System Master Plan (frontcountry urban-adjacent trails).

[Foggy_Goggles]

What i see is justified rule breaking from a generally rule following nerd heard. Save me the mental gymnastics and just own your pussy ass moped.

And speed differential and riding traditionally downhill trails up hill.

The FS could shut it down in one weekend just hanging out at the popular trailheads.

Also people that dont know now to ride bikes

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[Foggy_Goggles]

Riding them on the sidewalk and Fraser River Trail.

I dont hate e bikes but in and around WP there is really no place for them, rules or otherwise. We have tons of trails but mostly loops and short interconnecting trails. There really isn't anywhere with mega climbs or mileage that allows you get get away from the MTBs.

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[nickwm21]

We need to simplify the regulations:

- If it has a throttle it cannot have pedals.
- If it has a throttle, it’s a motor vehicle, not a bicycle. It cannot be ridden in the bike lane, multi-use path, mountain bike trials, non-OHV zones, etc…
- For pedal assist bikes; No multi-class system, pick a max wattage and speed. 28mph is too fast IMHO.

This will incentivize a separation in design characteristics between e-bikes and e-motos, ie E-bikes will look and feel like bicycles, pedaling focused geometry, move at bicycle speeds, etc…


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[XXX-er]

its super easy to just google class 1 E-bike

[grinch]

It isn't that I think that way, it is that that is the way they are treated under curent national forest service rules in my area.
I think that if they want to ride the non-motorized trails, they need to put some skin in the game as far a funding and maintenance in order to overcome the overwhelming assumption that they cause more damage to the trails than analog bikes. Some good will and organization could go a long way. But that'll be a long way off because they just act like they are entittled to the trails because they are there and other long time, active users disagree with that.

No you said emtbers should just buy motos because thats where theyre going.
Emtbers are the same demographic as mtbers. They are the ones putting the work in. The majority of builders use emtb. Most current emtbers are still mtbers or were mtbers.
Do you just make shit up to fit your narrative? I literally dont know anyone thats on an emtb that doesnt ride mtb as well or came from an emtb. No one, zero, nada

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[grinch]

Agree, they have no history or community. There are no Emtb clubs that I know of, no organization, and no relationship with the NFS, and therefore no voice so they will continue to just get put where the analog groups think they should be. Our local mtb group has basically shunned them and said they'll get no support. So I see their only way forward to be buying their way in through OHV permits or creating a new funding machanism that can give them a reason to be justified in using non-motorized trails. Until then, they'll be seen as pariahs, and every misstep and every time they are seen where they shouldn't be, will count against them.

You have no idea what youre talking about. Emtbers are members of the cycling clubs. They buy the memberships. Theyre the same people

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[grinch]

Holy fack , the trg just repeats the same fear and nonsense like they were just invented. Still no fkn clue how they work or who rides them but , of course, theyre here to tell everyone how it should be or where we're going. The flex is real. Put on those speedos , a coulpe teeth clenchers and start screaming "pussies, i dont need no stinking ebike!! One of them eebers tries to use my bathroom im gonna fill'm full'r lead!!"

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[XXX-er]

What grinch sez ^^ I was looking at FB this morning and the tri-guy long time rider I let ride my vala 100 ft has his bike for sale, another one comes to the dark side eh lol

[XXX-er]

What grinch sez ^^ I was looking at FB this morning and the tri-guy long time rider I let ride my vala 100 ft has his bike for sale, another one comes to the dark side eh lol

[alias_rice]

You have no idea what youre talking about. Emtbers are members of the cycling clubs. They buy the memberships. Theyre the same people

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This. Pretty much everyone I know that rides an ebike on singletrack came from the mountain bike world. And most of them still ride their regular mountain bike occasionally. We all make better allies than enemies if protecting access is important.

[Name Redacted]

This might blow your mind but maybe, the national forest service in canada has different opinions that the ones in the US. Im actually just pointing out what we are working with in my locale, not yours.

What is your solution?

[Dantheman]

We need to simplify the regulations:

- If it has a throttle it cannot have pedals.
- If it has a throttle, it’s a motor vehicle, not a bicycle. It cannot be ridden in the bike lane, multi-use path, mountain bike trials, non-OHV zones, etc…
- For pedal assist bikes; No multi-class system, pick a max wattage and speed. 28mph is too fast IMHO.

This will incentivize a separation in design characteristics between e-bikes and e-motos, ie E-bikes will look and feel like bicycles, pedaling focused geometry, move at bicycle speeds, etc…

28 mph is perfectly acceptable for road use. No way I'd ever buy an ebike for road use that cut off at 20 mph.

What is needed is a new class of trail. Motorized/non-motorized is pretty well-defined and self-explanatory, but the post-two-stroke era could use something more nuanced.

[Dantheman]

This. Pretty much everyone I know that rides an ebike on singletrack came from the mountain bike world. And most of them still ride their regular mountain bike occasionally. We all make better allies than enemies if protecting access is important.

Our personal experience is a biased sample. I have anecdotes to the contrary.

This might blow your mind but maybe, the national forest service in canada has different opinions that the ones in the US. Im actually just pointing out what we are working with in my locale, not yours.

What is your solution?

The Canadian perspective on this issue is adorable.

[XXX-er]

yeah on a 2 lane road 20mph/ 32kph feels pretty slow but on tight singletrack I think its fine, in any case it sounds like you anti-Eeb folks are losing the battle becuz people are just ignoring the rules imagine that eh?

In any case ours seems to be working, yours maybe not ??

[toast2266]

I'm certainly starting to see the benefits of ebikes. The 2 ebikers in here post comments at roughly 5 times the rate of any of the analog bikers. I've gotta assume this is because they're able to finish their rides much more quickly with the motor assist. Leaves more time for posting on forums.

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[BCMtnHound]

The bickering here and local about most trail use isn’t worth the squeeze. Less users overall is best.
Trails suck here. Don’t bother coming.
Your absence is appreciated.