Do you detune? Why or why not?

[Marshal Olson]

grounds for divorce.

Having briefly dated a girl who was like "F yeah slayer"... I think I'm good not being married to one

[One (+) Sentence]

Yep, polished edges are more important than “sharp” edges.

[toast2266]

Having briefly dated a girl who was like "F yeah slayer"... I think I'm good not being married to one

Ha! Fair point.

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[Mustonen]

Where do you ski?

Why? Wanna have a ski off?

I live in the UP of Michigan. That’s where I ski when I’m not traveling to ski somewhere else. This winter I expect to make it to CO and UT.

I don't think so. Sticking with this highly imperfect analogy, if you angle a knife so the blade is leading, a sharp knife will be more likely to dig in and catch. A dull knife will be more likely to slide.

Same with a ski. You angle it as you lean. A sharp edge will be more inclined to catch. Which is what you want if you're trying to carve a turn. But it's not what you want if you're trying to smear / slide a turn.

Some skis I mostly want to carve, so I want sharp edges on them. Some skis I mostly want to smear, so I want duller edges on them.

I also have a theory that sharp edges are preferable more often in a continental snowpack, but that's a different can of worms.

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This is an interesting analogy because the sharper your knife is the more precise you’ll be able to be with your dragging and cutting and feathering that transition. Dull knives are imprecise and even dangerous for that reason.

Also, I haven’t had too many powder days where I don’t find something somewhere that’s been scraped off and I appreciate having a sharp edge, and I also appreciate that edge on groomers back to the lift.

A duller edge just means the range of angles where the ski will release is wider. On a smooth, groomed run, it's easy to flatten the ski and release the edge at will. In bumpy unsmooth snow, flattening the ski relative to the snow requires the ski to be at a constantly changing angle. Oftentimes, the tip would need to be at one angle while the tail would need to be at another to be slide-able (which, incidentally, is why torsional stiffness can make a big difference in how a wider ski feels). Since a duller edge broadens the range of angles where the ski will slide, it makes it far easier to drift the ski in dynamic snow.

Wouldn’t you say it broadens the angles at which a ski will slide, but it reduces the range of sliding available to you? Also, how does ski width factor in here? The range of motion to achieve a higher edge angle on a fat ski is significantly more than on a carving ski, which leads directly to being better able to feather that edge….? No?

I demand everyone posting in this thread share a video of them skiing a bumped up run on a moderate pitch black diamond, followed by a video of them skiing a high speed groomer so we can analyze if they are in the top 1% of skiers who need a detune.

I’m game. Just need somebody to take some video of me skiing. You first how bout?

Fascinating thread... a couple quick thoughts!

(1) Tuning is a bit more art than science IMO -- or at least about feel -- and not everyone has the same taste. For example, my wife and I like alot of the same music, but I ALWAYS am down for slayer and she NEVER is. That isn't a right or wrong thing, it's a different taste thing.

(2) Skis and how they ride can get radically altered based on their edge prep. from literally unskiable to super hooked up and edgy to super loose and drifty... all while being "tuned". its more a matter of mathcing the style and desired traits to the ski and how they are to be used.

(3) There are lots of elements of tuning -- base structure, wax, edge bevels, polishing, burnishing, etc -- all designed to get the right mix of glide, edge, and slide for a given skier in certain use cases.

(4) There isn't always a "one-setup-per-person" thing. For example, I put more aggressive tunes on my looser powder skis so they are fun getting back to the lift (ie my HB122 is closer to a gs race ski tune since its super rockered and soft and insanely easy to throw sideways anyhow) where the big burly super chargers get more buttered out (ie my personal pair of Fl105 had closer to a park ski tune, since I was mainly skiing them in the moguls and tight trees). On my "high pressure" skis, the snow is often super grabby from high wind, so I don't run those skis as aggressively (ie 2-3 times as many passes with a gummi, more base edge bevel in the transition of the camber pocket to rocker line), as its way easier to hook an edge on that snow. This isn't "detuning", but rather "tuning for conditions" IMO!

(5) All conventional wisdom from every tuning savant I've ever chatted with, is that outside the wide points, they all advocate hand beveling the base edge and rounding the edge outside the widepoints. it makes the skis wildly more predictable in variable/punchy snow. Skis are not able to engage the edge more than 1-2cm past the wide points, but based on how machines work, there is typically very little bevel and a often more stone structure in the base edge out here -- and some times a pretty aggressive hanging burr on skis with full wrap metal edges. This isn't detuning, it is just proper ski prep!

(6) I'd argue that tuning is intentionally getting the right amount of sharpness, bevels, etc in the right areas of your ski for your style and conditions

I guess to be clear, I don’t sharpen past the widest points, but I DO sharpen up to them almost without fail. I don’t think that’s detuning either. In my experience (and I think we generally agree) detuning is dulling the edge from the widest points back toward the middle to some other preferential point, whether that’s “contact point” or something else.

And 100% granted that this is very subjective and I can’t stress enough that I get that it’s driven by preference, but often “subjective” just means “we haven’t really thought it through” and there are reasons behind preferences that are worth talking about if it’s something fun like skiing. Right?? No?

[Mustonen]

Tail riders won't notice a detune.

Centered stance and reverse skis is also less noticeable since one id usually skiing on a shorter effective edge.

Where it is most pronounced is in skiers who really like a forward stance and are actively trying to drive from the tips. Even here one needs a consistent hard surface to get it right. Fully sharp edges in soft snow cause the ski to "peel" and track off line. There is reason the best WC SL skiers come from the east and Midwest while the best speed skiers are generally from mtn west and west coast, snow consistency in the west is hard to come by.

A similar question could be asked:

In what snow and turn shapes does one benefit engaging the very tip and tail of the ski?

A: There is only 1 I can think of, short radius SL skis on hard icy snow. Are you heartcarving?

All other skis gs, sg, dh, are blended bevels at the tip and tail to reduce engagement where it isn't wanted.
Why? Check out a slo mo of a ski flexing at speed. The tips bounce alot and if the tip edge engages , it does not help the skier maintain turn shape but will cause deflection off the desired line. Also large radius turns have a lot more time between turns ergo rapid engagement isn't needed or desirable. Think back to how horrible parabolic skis were.

Most rec skis should not be tuned through the tip, period. I guess if I only skied on ice I'd probably need some SL type skis too.

That you prefer a full tune through the tip and tail just tells us you don't get on fresh snow all that often.

No hate, just truths.

I don’t think I’m a tail rider, and I certainly am sensitive to detuned skis. I’m pretty shins in tongues, forward stance, and like to mash my tips all over the place. I do tend to use a bit more unweighting than many, and I think this might factor slightly. Could even be me compensating for sharp edges (and that’s the kinda thing I’m trying to drill down on, thanks!).

I certainly don’t have the 80% ratios some of you guys are talking about here. I do get in fresh snow quite often, though, and leftovers/mank/trees most of the rest of my skiing days. Do tell me more about what I’m skiing, though? Would love to show you around my home hill some day, it’s short but we always have a good time. Or maybe we can meet up when I’m out your way and we can heart carve or whatever. ?

[TAFKALVS]

Why? Wanna have a ski off?

I live in the UP of Michigan. That’s where I ski when I’m not traveling to ski somewhere else. This winter I expect to make it to CO and UT.



This is an interesting analogy because the sharper your knife is the more precise you’ll be able to be with your dragging and cutting and feathering that transition. Dull knives are imprecise and even dangerous for that reason.

Also, I haven’t had too many powder days where I don’t find something somewhere that’s been scraped off and I appreciate having a sharp edge, and I also appreciate that edge on groomers back to the lift.



Wouldn’t you say it broadens the angles at which a ski will slide, but it reduces the range of sliding available to you? Also, how does ski width factor in here? The range of motion to achieve a higher edge angle on a fat ski is significantly more than on a carving ski, which leads directly to being better able to feather that edge….? No?



I’m game. Just need somebody to take some video of me skiing. You first how bout?



I guess to be clear, I don’t sharpen past the widest points, but I DO sharpen up to them almost without fail. I don’t think that’s detuning either. In my experience (and I think we generally agree) detuning is dulling the edge from the widest points back toward the middle to some other preferential point, whether that’s “contact point” or something else.

And 100% granted that this is very subjective and I can’t stress enough that I get that it’s driven by preference, but often “subjective” just means “we haven’t really thought it through” and there are reasons behind preferences that are worth talking about if it’s something fun like skiing. Right?? No?

Lol why is this a competition? You probably have a bigger hawg and ski better than me.

But if you come to Schweitzer I’ll buy you a lift ticket.

Your location is hugely dependent on your tune preferences. I don’t ski much hard snow, seldom ski soft over ice, and most of the snow is wet, high density, and kind of lumpy. I don’t notice tune issues in perfect dry pow or on dry hardpack. I notice it very much on the shit snow I normally ski.

Happy to post a video of me skiing but that was a joke.

My responses to this thread were to try and help you understand why someone might detune due to how they initiate turns and how biomechanics, snow conditions, and terrain might subjectively play in to preferences.

But you’re just being combative for some reason, really not sure why.

[Mustonen]

Lol why is this a competition? You probably have a bigger hawg and ski better than me.

But if you come to Schweitzer I’ll buy you a lift ticket.

Your location is hugely dependent on your tune preferences. I don’t ski much hard snow, seldom ski soft over ice, and most of the snow is wet, high density, and kind of lumpy. I don’t notice tune issues in perfect dry pow or on dry hardpack. I notice it very much on the shit snow I normally ski.

Happy to post a video of me skiing but that was a joke.

My responses to this thread were to try and help you understand why someone might detune due to how they initiate turns and how biomechanics, snow conditions, and terrain might subjectively play in to preferences.

But you’re just being combative for some reason, really not sure why.

I was joking about ski offs and ski videos. I wasn’t sure if you were. Weird how things are perceived, right? And yeah, thanks… what drives somebody to detune is why I started the thread.

In recent years we DO get more warmups than we used to and that makes for some fun coral reefs to navigate in anything that doesn’t see groomers, even when they’re buried below a few inches of snow, which is where I gravitate usually.

[tuco]

But if you come to Schweitzer I’ll buy you a lift ticket.

Sweet!
I'm there bro!



PS- you got a surfable couch?

[FloridaSnow]

But you’re just being combative for some reason, really not sure why.

honestly at this point it just sounds like he’s trying to “prove” why his way is the right way and everyone is just wrong. Keeps saying he wants conversations to learn but everytime someone gives their opinion on why they like something different he just pivots back to why their way doesn’t seem right in his opinion. But hey that’s just my opinion.

[One (+) Sentence]

Schweitzer gets a similar to a hair less annual snowfall than we do, but obviously is a much bigger place.

HaHa! Now you’re just trollin’ homie. This is coming from someone who has spent their fair share of time in Houghton.

[toast2266]

Your location is hugely dependent on your tune preferences. I don’t ski much hard snow, seldom ski soft over ice, and most of the snow is wet, high density, and kind of lumpy. I don’t notice tune issues in perfect dry pow or on dry hardpack. I notice it very much on the shit snow I normally ski.

I think this an important point that's getting glossed over a bit.

By a show of hands, how many of the people in here that are fans of mostly sharp edges are skiing on the east coast, or in one of the states attached to the 4 corners? How many of the people that are fans of extensive detuning are in pacific states (or inland areas that get wet snow like Schweitzer)?

Every time I go from northwest Montana with it's warm wet snowpack to a place like Colorado, I think to myself "I should sharpen my edges."

[Mustonen]

Yeah, I guess I’m sorry you’re reading that into my responses. The only push back I really mean to make is in response to (1) I just don’t understand what detuning does or (2) it’s a magical mystery that nobody can explain.

I don’t think this is a right or wrong thing, really… shit, guys, it’s skiing. We ski because it’s fun. I think I might be right FOR ME, but even that isn’t something I’m completely convinced of and I’m wondering if I might be able to smooth out my transitions and better appreciate a solid detune if I could achieve stronger edge pressures. I don’t really think that’s going to be the case FOR ME but it certainly has me thinking through it.

[Mustonen]

HaHa! Now you’re just trollin’ homie. This is coming from someone who has spent their fair share of time in Houghton.

Yeah not really trying to. Top google hits had Schweitzer at 222 and CH at 270. That CH number is clearly a best case and certainly hasn’t’ been true the last couple years.

Edited to avoid confusion, I guess.

[TAFKALVS]

Yeah not really trying to. Top google hits had Schweitzer at 222 and CH at 270. That CH number is clearly a best case and certainly hasn’t’ been true the last couple years.

Edited to avoid confusion, I guess.

Schweitzer averages 350”, last year was terrible and still got 250”

[One (+) Sentence]

(2) it’s a magical mystery that nobody can explain.

I guess it’s as simple as some people preferring how their skis work when they are detuned to certain point? I try not to trip over other peoples gear preferences.

I know it snows a lot in the UP, but 270” on average is bogus. Bohemia looks to be at about 60” YTD. This resource from Michigan Tech is pretty good. https://www.mtu.edu/alumni/favorites...ily%20snowfall.

[TAFKALVS]

Yeah, I guess I’m sorry you’re reading that into my responses. The only push back I really mean to make is in response to (1) I just don’t understand what detuning does or (2) it’s a magical mystery that nobody can explain.

I don’t think this is a right or wrong thing, really… shit, guys, it’s skiing. We ski because it’s fun. I think I might be right FOR ME, but even that isn’t something I’m completely convinced of and I’m wondering if I might be able to smooth out my transitions and better appreciate a solid detune if I could achieve stronger edge pressures. I don’t really think that’s going to be the case FOR ME but it certainly has me thinking through it.

Maybe try detuning a little and see? And if it doesn’t work, sharpen the edges?

[2FUNKY]

I have $thirtyseven if a ski off ensues.


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[Mustonen]

Maybe try detuning a little and see? And if it doesn’t work, sharpen the edges?

Do you suppose, after all this, I yearn for the effortless release of a detuned ski and just have no idea how to achieve such zen? Also, what I said there was to work on stronger edging for the rest of it to maybe make sense.

The point isn’t really what I do or you do, it’s why and what drives the preference. We’ve got some good thoughts in here. I learned some stuff, at least.

[TAFKALVS]

Ok. But have you tried it?

[2FUNKY]

Im still rooting for a ski off.


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[Mustonen]

Loser has to tune their skis according to the other’s preferences for a year?

[TAFKALVS]

You sure you want to ski on detuned edges for the entire season?

[Mustonen]

Probably best I let you win. Wouldn’t want the thought of you catching an edge and falling off a cliff riding on my conscience.

[TAFKALVS]

I’d hate for you to slide off the machine made snow in to a cow pasture, so maybe I let you win.

[Mustonen]

Those cows will fuck you up.