Do you detune? Why or why not?

[chaka]

Does Bushwacka detune?

[plugboots]

After he drops and does 20 push ups.

[stealurface831]

Does Bushwacka detune?

he's a deburr guy

[jackstraw]

When I was a shop rat at the hill I experimented with every whacked tune possible. Riding railed skis was the most fun [emoji16]

With that said I found detuning best. That was the shops mo for all new boards going out the door also.

And Scot Schmidt comes in and I ask him what tune he wants and says "whatever" ...Run whatcha ya brung an learn how to adjust to the nuances, just like the snow conditions. You'll be better.

[TAFKALVS]

As a data point, I’ve been skiing some new skis straight from the wrapper mostly out of laziness but given this thread I decided to resist the urge to detune just to see if I was missing something. I’ve gotten 4 days on them now, and feel I can report my findings.

Please note these feelings are subtle and we’re talking about small differences. I have skied “railed” or edge high skis and these feelings I’m describing are magnified 10 - 20x on a ski in that condition.

Ski: 190 Mfree112

Conditions:

Day 1: 5” low density pow over soft base. soft groomers. 27 degree temps

Day 2: 12” high density wind effected upside down snow over very hard icy non-grippy rain crust. 32 degree temps.

Day 3: 2-4” wind blown storm snow over moderate firm but grippy base.
29 degree temps.

Day 4: 6 - 12” medium density pow
over moderate firm but grippy base. 30 degree temps.

Day 1: ski felt grippy on groomers. Occasionally it felt like the tip or tail wanted to engage on a different path than underfoot especially on the uphill ski. off piste the edges released predictably unless I punched through to the base below. In that case the ski wanted to follow its sidecut.

Day 2: Extra pressure was required when making rotary movements to get the ski to release. When in a sideways drift if you found bottom sometimes the ski would “catch”, sometimes not. The underfoot sensation of this I would describe going from slicing tofu with a knife to dragging nails on a chalkboard.

Day 3: when getting off the surf and punching through to the grippy firm snow below, it was a similar sensation - nice drifty turn and then quick catch/hookup on the firm snow below. Nothing unmanageable but had to pay attention and compensate with edge pressure accordingly.

Day 4: medium body snow and high speed skiing in chop. When charging down the fall line and encountering pockets alternating between soft and scraped, a similar sensation of drift to catch (tofu to chalkboard) feeling occurred. Also another time after pointing off a 5-10’ high cliff section on a 40 degree slope in to a steep choppy runout when putting the ski sideways to dump speed on the exit I could feel the edge catch and release. Nothing I couldn’t overcome but not the clean drift the ski is capable of in non-mixed surfaces. Did have one scary moment when I got biased to the uphill inside ski after hitting an unforeseen bump in the fog while skiing fast (welcome to Schweitzer), the tip engaged and had the ski run away a little bit due to sharp edges on grippy firm snow. Was able to reset my weight downhill and get back on track but I don’t think this would have happened if the tip had been detuned.

Summary:

1.) detuning is less about having a particular feel in consistent snow conditions and more about dulling the feedback as snow conditions change turn to turn especially at speed.

2. why you would want the ski to grab on hard snow underneath soft snow I have no idea.

3.) loose edges are less work and more fun for ME in mixed resort conditions when skiing fast.

4.) probably a different thing if you ski slower and just sorta do short swing bounce turns or something.

YMMV

[jackstraw]

^Nice summary.

The answer is yes. Detune your boards.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Or tune to your preference and intended purpose. I think polishing and dulling edges is part of a tune. Can we talk about sidewall planing now?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[gregL]

Or tune to your preference and intended purpose.

Agree. I check the tune of everything out of the wrapper, and aggressively dull any part of the edge that isn't going to touch the snow (tips and tails) with a 10" mill bastard file (gummi stones don't cut it). My theory is if I throw a shoe and the ski spears me in the neck, I prefer a shallower wound. Even if the ski is new to me, I've usually done a few laps on a demo pair so I have a good idea of how far if any I want to dull past the contacts using a 100 diamond stone (if the ski felt hooky or stubborn at medium speeds initially I might dull lightly 2-3 inches back).

Then I check base and edge bevels and adjust according to what sort of snow the ski is typically going to used on - under 90mm gets a "race" tune of .75 and 3 degrees, over 100mm gets 1 and 2, over 115mm sometimes 1 and 1. Most of my skis are Blizzards, and the stock nominal bevels (~1 and ~2.8) are pretty agressive on wider skis. On my 97mm and 102mm skis, which most people would call "all-mountain" but really are designed to carve a clean turn, I may do a 3 degree side bevel between the bindings and leave the rest 1 and 2.

Any part of the edge I tune is sharp and smooth - I used to finish with 400 and 600 diamond stones but now I usually finish with the 400 (can't really tell a difference), then a fine gummi. The whole process is time consuming and a pain in the ass, but the results have been to my liking . . .

[Fred Pabst]

^^This.

Outbound from contact points gets the 10" bastard file treatment, especially all the way around the shovel to help prevent tip shave, but that is more for ski care than performance. I will do a soft detune of a couple inches from contact points in.

GregL..I am interested on what tools you use to reset edge bevels to whatever degrees your looking for, especially on new skis.

[gregL]

GregL..I am interested on what tools you use to reset edge bevels to whatever degrees your looking for, especially on new skis.

I have the full set of SVST side edge bevels (0, 1, 2 and 3 degrees - 0 just gets used to sharpen scrapers) with clamps and a SWIX base edge guide, usually set the bevel with a 100mm panzer file and follow up with 200 and 400 grit diamond stones using plenty of wet lubricant (1:1 water to rubbing alcohol). Base edge bevels are seldom a problem, but I do like to polish to get rid of the circular marks from the factory grinder. If a ski is not flat (not often these days), I take it to the shop and use the Wintersteiger stone grinder.

[Marshal Olson]

This thread is money. Really got me thinking about snow types in different regions and different styles. Thank you for that! Going to start offering a "razor tune" and a "butter tune" option going forward, with some test butter tunes going out for a couple folks to test to help me refine that.

Also, got a few good DM / Email strings going on the topic. Here is a note I typed up for Carlh who is buttering in his own pair for the PNW. Thought it might be an interesting read for some.

• Use painters tape and mark where the contact points and wide points on the ski footprint.
  
  • This is the "contact region" of the ski
  • will reference later, but this is likely the region (between these two points) that will make the biggest difference in the final buttering of the skis.
  • The inverse on reverse camber skis is also true... so mark or visual the previous under your binding as being the "contact region"
  
  
• Now, put your skis into the vise, bases toward the wall, bindings toward your stomach
• give a good run-through of the edges with your hands.
  
  • Any burrs? if so de-burr them with a ~200 grit diamond stone
  • If knocking down hanging side-edge burrs, be certain to clean of the hanging base edge burr with a 400-1200 diamond stone
  
  
• Next, we fully assess the sharpness of the ski before doing any work on the ski.
  
  • Any spots noticeably sharper than others? I drag the tips of my fingers laterally over the edges as I slowly move up and down the ski (ie how much do my fingerprints catch on the edge).
  • How sharp is the area between the wide point and contact points?
  • Is the ski sharp or have a burr outside the widepoints towards their corresponding ends?
  
  
• Then, we adjust accordingly, but in the order of importance... and if you need to do a lot on steps 1-2 you may want to ski first before moving onwards down the line, as the higher steps make the biggest difference and are more "everyone wants this and nobody doesn't"/
  
  • Round the edges outside the wide points and remove any remaining burrs
  • Adjust any excessively sharp areas inside the wide points by doing a couple of passes with very light pressure (stone just gliding accross the edge) a ~400 grit diamond stone at a 45* angle to the edge. continually re-asses and fully balance the sharpness through the entire length of the edge.
  • Sharpnen any areas with an ice cut / finishing file that may be overly dull inside the wide points
  • give a good few passes with a gummi to remove any fine burrs.
  • If the above are pretty close, and you want a little more butter, then assess the sharpness inside the "contact area" defined above, and consider slightly detuning further. You DO NOT want a dull edge here, but rather something closer to 1/2 sharp. Same logic applies. Diamond stone at 45* and methodically refine the sharpness to taste.
  • give a good few passes with a gummi to remove any fine burrs.
  
  
• Take a peek at the base... we have come this far, probably worth it to throw a nice wax on there too.
• crack a beverage and libate
• For sure ski it here, but if you still want a little more drift, repeate as needed, but mentally recording where/how/what you like as well as where the ski is catching, to accelerate the process next time you tune and/or next ski you mount up.

[goldenboy]

On more than one occasion I've gotten my skis back from the shop razor sharp with no detune. I've skied less than 1,000 vert before desperately searching for a rock and detuning the crap out of the tips and tails with a rock. There are few things that I hate more than tips and tails aggressively hooking up and/or not releasing when I tell them to.

[zion zig zag]

On more than one occasion I've gotten my skis back from the shop razor sharp with no detune. I've skied less than 1,000 vert before desperately searching for a rock and detuning the crap out of the tips and tails with a rock. There are few things that I hate more than tips and tails aggressively hooking up and/or not releasing when I tell them to.

Agreed. Can be dangerous on steeps and in consequential terrain.

[jackstraw]

If you're carving turns with the shovels and very end of the tails, by all means sharpen the hell out of them. If you actually know how to ski, detune the hell out of them.

[Mustonen]

If you're carving turns with the shovels and very end of the tails, by all means sharpen the hell out of them. If you actually know how to ski, detune the hell out of them.

Such an interesting comment…. But what does it MEAN? How do you suppose preferring sharp edges along the entire sidecut of a ski intimates not actually knowing how to ski?

I’m not saying you’re wrong! But the basis for your statement is sorta the heart of what I’m trying to drive at. If it’s the same stuff already hashed out here you don’t need to repeat. But if you can articulate I’m excited to learn at your feet, oh wise one.

[EWG]

You guys are way too stressed about this.

Doug thinks you are overthinking it. 5 minutes and done. The Q and P.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...s-tuning-video

[J. Barron DeJong]

If you actually know how to ski, detune the hell out of them.

Is this the advice you’d give to Shiffrin when preparing her GS skis for an injected WC course?

The skiers strength/style, ski type, terrain, and conditions are all going to play into whether it’s best to detune and by how much.

[gaijin]

Is a lack of a detune what Tomba would bitch about when he'd complain that his skis were too sharp?

[J. Barron DeJong]

Is a lack of a detune what Tomba would bitch about when he'd complain that his skis were too sharp?

Maybe. But it doesn’t matter.

I guarantee Shiffrin doesn’t detune the same way, every day, for every condition.