PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

[goldenboy]

Highlands or Silverton, at least for CO...

It would surprise me if Highlands is more than CB, but who knows.

[summit]

I'd always heard Silverton but I didn't know if they count?

[goldenboy]

Via pcskipatrolunion on IG, vail is bringing in Scabs from other resorts to be at the ready and some have no medical certs


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They should probably go ahead and strike or work slowdown while they have some leverage

[mr walker]

I'd always heard Silverton but I didn't know if they count?

Other ski areas may use more units per year since they rely on hand/launcher/tram placement, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's Silverton by total tonnage. Turns out you can fit a lot of ANFO in the back of a Bell 205...

[old goat]

Having to get health insurance through your employment is what is not normal. No other fucking country does this bullshit.

My employer does not buy my fucking car insurance. Why the hell is it buying my fucking health insurance?

Accident of history. During WWII there were wage controls for civilian jobs so firms competed for scarce workers--the ones not off fighting the war--by offering health insurance, which had been around for a while but not widespread. That arrangement continued after the war, by inertia. (In England the National Health Service was an extension of the government run hospitals established to take care of victims of the Blitz. Another accident of history.)
We should have universal health insurance, not tied to employment.

One of the best things about TGR - we have a lot of knowledge about a lot of subjects

One of the worst things about TGR - despite said knowledge, lot of people just spew about shit that they have no idea about

I'm not a patroller - many of my friends are and have 10+ years of experience is the more senior/critical roles so here's what I see.

Health Insurance - many ski area employees highly value the benefits. It's a standard ski town set up where one person will be a contractor/realtor/or other generally high paid but inconsistent worker with no benefits. The other will work for a ski area for generally good family benefits.

Range of Skill Sets on Patrol - for sure there is a big difference between the Jr. (1 to 3 year) experience rank and file 'troller that basically does the ranching on skis and minor medical and the Sr. patrollers that may be supervisors, snow safety, lift evac., med. trainers., EMTs and so on. But you don't get the Sr.s without taking care of the Jr.s.

It is a physically dangerous job much of which can't be mitigated - Winter Park is open something like 150 days a year. That's a lot of skiing. And you are trying to stay healthy doing it. Avalanches, collisions, frostbite, ACLs and so on.

The vibe of the ski area staff is critical to the good times. Wanker has great lifties and patrol. It really helps keep the stoke up and thats what I'm there for.

Living Wage Jobs - I know close to nothing about unions but I do know about paying the bills. It is not unique to ski patrollers or mountain towns. So you can go on about supply and demand in the labor market and opine on the value to society all you want. But we need to move the conversation to many jobs need to pay more.

I know you bitches and your kids are better than average, so you are all pulling down six figures plotting the purchase for your next Euro Status Wagon. But be real. Stop with the performative compassion and realize that income (wealth?) disparity creates this giant wedge in society that many don't want to talk about. Its systemic. People need to make more money. Its part of the societal contract. Work your 40. Pay rent. Make a car payment. Groceries. Eat out once every couple of weeks. Take one decent vacation a year.

But no body wants to give up shit. The basic bitch middle class think that are the smartest fucker around expecting others to solve their faux problems.

Think about it. You are fucking skiing. On a Thursday. Working "Remote". And you want to chime in about wages for the service industry that are cupping your ball on the daily? Fuck...right...off. Or at least own it.

So yeah, $75k a year. What would happen? Ohh, the asset bubble might leak some air. Who cares.

This ^^^^. And you know what--if ski area employees (and employees in every other industry)--all of them--were unionized, and if we eliminated the huge wealth and income inequalities with a more progressive income tax and a wealth tax--resort skiing might not be affordable for almost anyone and we'd all have to earn our turns. That would suck, but not nearly as bad as the current economic situation sucks for huge numbers of people in this country.

'Lil respect, asshole.

Indeed.

[Core Shot]

'Lil respect, asshole.

Sorry man. I’ll edit my post. You can edit quoting me. It’s second hand info. But yeah. Shouldn’t be said publicly

[skiJ]

Accident of history. During WWII there were wage controls for civilian jobs so firms competed for scarce workers--the ones not off fighting the war--by offering health insurance, which had been around for a while but not widespread. That arrangement continued after the war, by inertia. (In England the National Health Service was an extension of the government run hospitals established to take care of victims of the Blitz. Another accident of history.)
We should have universal health insurance, not tied to employment.

~ ~ ~
This ^^^^. And you know what--if ski area employees (and employees in every other industry)--all of them--were unionized, and if we eliminated the huge wealth and income inequalities with a more progressive income tax and a wealth tax--resort skiing might not be affordable for almost anyone and we'd all have to earn our turns. That would suck, but not nearly as bad as the current economic situation sucks for huge numbers of people in this country.

~ ~ ~
Indeed.

respectfully,
the idea that unions are the solution to pay / income disputes went out-the-window for me in the more than a decade I worked a 'represented' position, and the State and the 'union' would 'negotiate' for two years after a contract expired, settle the contract in the days before the new contract expired, and begin the process over again ;
we'd get a check for 500. in back-wages, for two years of work -
That and the firing of the air traffic controllers by Reagan in 1981 ended my hope for unions.

it is my understanding that this country Had a "more progressive income tax" prior to 1981, and that one party has pretty-much eliminated that ( and corporate taxes) over the last forty years...
I am not sure what is meant by wealth tax, but I am confident the incoming administration will not support either of these --

finally, the idea that wealth and income disparities should be "eliminated" ( that is the word that was used ) by taxation does not sound like Democracy nor capitalism to me...


respectfully.
- - -

it is interesting the way threads on these forums evolve -

I wish the ski patrollers well -

( I do believe they are receiving poor 'representation' , and, by scheduling a 'strike support fundraiser' for later today, with mediation scheduled this week, I am also critical of leadership. )

I have always believed that, 'the pendulum swings... ' , but over the last ten years, and with the announcement yesterday that the Louisiana Public Health Department is instructed to comply with an unwritten policy to Not promote vaccination, it feels like our species is on a destructive path --


wishing you 'merry' Christmas, magg.s ! !

Good luck to the patrollers --

skiJ

[old goat]

I said eliminated "huge" disparities. I don't expect income and wealth disparities to go away entirely.
A wealth tax is exactly that--a tax on personal assets over a certain amount. Business and corporate assets not included. See Piketty--Capital in the 21st Century.

Having been a union member myself (Steel Workers) and having worked in a unionized hospital I no not believe unions are perfect but there is no question in my mind that they raised the wages and benefits of all workers, unionized or not, and that it is no coincidence that the increasing wealth disparities of the last few decades have been accompanied by decreasing unionization, or vice versa.

Capitalism is a religion in this country--an opiate for the masses, like the real thing. The bosses call anything that makes them richer "capitalism" and anything that makes them poorer "socialism" and the masses kneel before them and let the bosses put the poisoned wafer on their tongues. (Socialism is the ownership of the means of production by the government. Nothing that has been called socialism in this country meets that definition.) I don't think a single economist or politician in this country supports unregulated laissez faire capitalism Adam Smith didn't, he just described it.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

respectfully,
the idea that unions are the solution to pay / income disputes went out-the-window for me in the more than a decade I worked a 'represented' position, and the State and the 'union' would 'negotiate' for two years after a contract expired, settle the contract in the days before the new contract expired, and begin the process over again ;
we'd get a check for 500. in back-wages, for two years of work -
That and the firing of the air traffic controllers by Reagan in 1981 ended my hope for unions.

it is my understanding that this country Had a "more progressive income tax" prior to 1981, and that one party has pretty-much eliminated that ( and corporate taxes) over the last forty years...
I am not sure what is meant by wealth tax, but I am confident the incoming administration will not support either of these --

finally, the idea that wealth and income disparities should be "eliminated" ( that is the word that was used ) by taxation does not sound like Democracy nor capitalism to me...


respectfully.
- - -

it is interesting the way threads on these forums evolve -

I wish the ski patrollers well -

( I do believe they are receiving poor 'representation' , and, by scheduling a 'strike support fundraiser' for later today, with mediation scheduled this week, I am also critical of leadership. )

I have always believed that, 'the pendulum swings... ' , but over the last ten years, and with the announcement yesterday that the Louisiana Public Health Department is instructed to comply with an unwritten policy to Not promote vaccination, it feels like our species is on a destructive path --


wishing you 'merry' Christmas, magg.s ! !

Good luck to the patrollers --

skiJ

Do you have autism? The way you post is bizarre and I’ve never seen anything like it on the internet.


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[skiJ]

I said eliminated "huge" disparities. I don't expect income and wealth disparities to go away entirely.
A wealth tax is exactly that--a tax on personal assets over a certain amount. Business and corporate assets not included. See Piketty--Capital in the 21st Century.

Having been a union member myself (Steel Workers) and having worked in a unionized hospital I no not believe unions are perfect but there is no question in my mind that they raised the wages and benefits of all workers, unionized or not, and that it is no coincidence that the increasing wealth disparities of the last few decades have been accompanied by decreasing unionization, or vice versa.

Capitalism is a religion in this country--an opiate for the masses, like the real thing. The bosses call anything that makes them richer "capitalism" and anything that makes them poorer "socialism" and the masses kneel before them and let the bosses put the poisoned wafer on their tongues. (Socialism is the ownership of the means of production by the government. Nothing that has been called socialism in this country meets that definition.) I don't think a single economist or politician in this country supports unregulated laissez faire capitalism Adam Smith didn't, he just described it.

to my reading, when one is talking about "eliminating [huge] inequities", huge describes inequities, it does not modify 'eliminate' ;
the revision is noted ;

I understand one believes unions have raised 'wages and benefits' , and historically, that may be true - but in my experience, it is not-true over the last thirty years ( again, this is my experience. )
so now we have ski patrollers trained in emergency care and Safety, represented by a communication workers union.
And now we have 'Right to work' and 'free choicer' state legislation that further limits protection for "workers" .
A decade ago in my home state, hundreds of veteran teachers took early retirement, rather than risk the pensions that their Retirements had been planned on for more than 25 years and more than 30 years, when 'Right to work' legislation basically gutted the protection of the State's largest union, the teachers' union ;

it is interesting to hear capitalism referred to as a "religion" , and to read that only one definition of 'socialism' applies ; people in this country have been disparaging opposing opinions as ( "socialism" ) for almost forty years ;
I was Very careful Not to use that word, and it is interesting how quickly and eager someone who is promoting the idea of a "wealth tax" is to claim said tax is not-socialism ( which the critic claims is Only government ownership of Production ) ( I know a few S ananavian immigrants, who were paying income taxes of 50% who would disagree. )
for those for whom Economic policy and politics are "religion", I will gladly step aside - again.
But for me, the claim that the practices-and-the policies of the past century ( unions. maybe, arguably, ' a more progressive ( another dirty word. ) income tax' ) are going to lead to a resolution of the current situation that those very policies contributed to creating !
( Adam Smith - Great. ! You can have your economic arguments from the Eighteenth century ! !! )


Remember ! in 2021, Vail Resorts settled for $2. / hr more than the union was asking / requesting / demanding ;
Two weeks ago, it was claimed VR ( I am Not a fan ) Has this covered.
yesterday, it was claimed replacements (SCABs! ) were to be available Today ;
Replacement patrollers don't have to do everything PCMSR patrollers do ;
( SCABs! ) need to identify ( diagnose), stabilize-and-package, and transport patients to the Aid room where a better level of (medical) care can be awaiting by other agreement --

it goes on and on, ,,, and in six pages, there has been scant discussion of the lawfulness of a strike ( Utah is an "at-will" ( 'Right-to-work' ) state )

I try to be realistic and reasonable in my posts -
There is a lot of sensational ideas in this thread ;

I Am for the patrollers - And

Ii believe we need to be realistic, or
the patrollers may find themselves replaced - permanently.

I am sorry.
( / end ranting blog entry )

Good luck to the patrollers -

Adam Smith, died 1790 - That's awesome.


tj

[skiJ]

Do you have autism? The way you post is bizarre and I’ve never seen anything like it on the internet.

[/url]

no. . . . Thank you for your contribution.

[RegCT]

I would encourage anyone directly affected or involved or interested in these organized labor conversations to start by reading the NLRA. Its not that long and helps make a ton of sense of the procedures and inherent politics involved, and what I find most interesting, the kind of boiler plate messaging you see from both sides of the table throughout the entire process from the initial vote through negotiations.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I’m in healthcare and I’m represented by the UFCW, I got a [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]% raise this year and my pay has increased nearly [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]% in [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]] years. I’m not sure what your point is skiJ, your posts are anything but realistic and reasonable. It’s incoherent babbling.


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[Bunion 2020]

I believe we need to be realistic, or the patrollers may find themselves replaced - permanently.

(edited for clarity)

Ya know what, I have been permanently replaced on 3 patrols and I went on to better situations. There are worse things in life and it's not like PCMR or the Canyons are that great of ski areas.

WTF IS realistic? I think we can all agree that $ 23.00 an hour even for 2000 hrs a year will not cover the COL in most ski towns and Park City especially. OK so pay them $ 23.00 and they can live in SLC? Nope that won't really cover the COL there either.

And this isn't just about an hourly wage, ultimately it comes down to the simple question of, "does a ski patroller need to be a well trained and experienced professional?"

And if the answer is yes, what kind of pay and benefits are they worth to their ski company to keep them as long term employees.

Thx

@RegCT, help me remember, were you are part of the BSSP getting organized?

[skiJ]

so -
concerned about combining the Economics of Capitalism with religion And opiate drugs, I gave 'Piketty (and) capitalism' the Google Search and ended-up at Wikipedia -

Piketty is a French author, who cites novels of the nineteenth century, that supposedly depict the Aristocratic life of the eighteenth century as the basis for economic challenges of the twenty-first century -

to me, it's like science fiction, in reverse --

I have tried to tighten my writing since being made aware it could be challenging for those with genuine reading disorders ( including a dyslexic attorney who did not recognize punctuation. nor personal pronouns )

but to me, it is a claim like,
' Capitalism is a religion - an opiate for the masses. ... ' that ought to really give us
Pause.

I don't want to go down the trail of mixing drugs with religion with economics ;
while I believe they are interrelated, it is the sort of thing that I believe is better considered on an Individual basis, lest we end-up with mixed metaphors that have little to do with the subject at-hand.


Good luck to the patrollers
( Please be careful what you demand, lest you be permanently replaced, like my friend who was an air traffic controller in 1981, and worked Construction until he died of cancer twenty-five years later. )

Good luck -

peace, my friends

skiJ

[Core Shot]

I’m in healthcare and I’m represented by the UFCW, I got a [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]% raise this year and my pay has increased nearly [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]% in [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]] years. I’m not sure what your point is skiJ, your posts are anything but realistic and reasonable. It’s incoherent babbling.


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At least he doesn’t babble in emojis

I like ski J posts. Brain droppings . Stream of consciousness. But always with a big heart and big love.

Hating on him is like hating on sfb

You may be confused. But they are focused on one love vibration positivity.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

SkiJ has nothing in common with SFB, you might be more cogent than skiJ, that’s saying something.


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[Bunion 2020]

I like the way SkiJ writes. But it does require a bit of paying attention, not a bad thing.

[skiJ]

I’m in healthcare and I’m represented by the UFCW, I got a [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]% raise this year and my pay has increased nearly [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]% in [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]] years. I’m not sure what your point is skiJ, your posts are anything but realistic and reasonable. It’s incoherent babbling.

I support the patrollers -
I believe most of them are seasonal employees ;
I believe PCMski patrol wages average 25/hour, and have gone up an average of 50% over four years ;
I believe in 2021/2022 VR settled for $2 more / hour than the union was demanding.

Bunion makes a Good point >
there may be worse things than being permanently replaced.

The idea that this dispute is going to lead to patrollers being paid 20G, being paid 46G to 70G / year is not reasonable nor realistic to me.
Similarly, I do not believe PCMRs has year 'round, full-time Work for 300 patrollers - nor does PCMR want to.

I hope, -Unicorn, you can understand these statements.
I do not see how your posts contribute anything to the Subject of this thread. we know you are in health care. Surgery and nursing are not ski patrol.

Bunion, yours is an excellent post ! And 99% of the time ( and 100% on this matter, given your experience )
... and I value your input !
And I admire that you were able to evolve you patrolling into a full-time career occupation.
I believe that is rare.


... Thank you.

skiJ

[skiJ]

Thank you, Core Shot -

( I am not worthy ; these are trying times )

Go! skiing ! have Fun !


tj

[MagnificentUnicorn]

You’re rambling about poor union representation and a union that has nothing to do with patrolling. It has everything to do with your posts. UFCW is United Food and Commercial Workers, nothing to do with my line of work yet good representation. Do you follow now?

You don’t like unions because of an anecdote about your friend that was an air traffic controller and he got screwed by the union. That has as much to do with the topic as what I posted about. Care to elaborate how your post is contributing but mine isn’t? I’m genuinely curious


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[skiJ]

no thanks, -Unicorn.
my opinion(s) about the possible ski patrol strike are up-thread.

The thread isn't really about "ski patrolling", but as the saying goes,
' You do you. "

Clearly, my posts are not for you, and
I have encouraged you to Ignore my posts.

g'bye

tj

( The air traffic controllers were not "screwed" by the union ; they were fired by Reagan.
There isn't a clearer, simpler case of 'union busting' in my lifetime.

at least that is my understanding of history )

[m2711c]

Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense…

[MagnificentUnicorn]

SkiJ, your friend lost his job because he participated in an illegal strike by federal employees, that’s not exactly union busting. The federal air traffic controllers actually sign an oath not to strike. PATCO refused to comply with federal law. ???


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[old goat]

so -
concerned about combining the Economics of Capitalism with religion And opiate drugs, I gave 'Piketty (and) capitalism' the Google Search and ended-up at Wikipedia -

Piketty is a French author, who cites novels of the nineteenth century, that supposedly depict the Aristocratic life of the eighteenth century as the basis for economic challenges of the twenty-first century -

to me, it's like science fiction, in reverse --

I have tried to tighten my writing since being made aware it could be challenging for those with genuine reading disorders ( including a dyslexic attorney who did not recognize punctuation. nor personal pronouns )

but to me, it is a claim like,
' Capitalism is a religion - an opiate for the masses. ... ' that ought to really give us
Pause.

I don't want to go down the trail of mixing drugs with religion with economics ;
while I believe they are interrelated, it is the sort of thing that I believe is better considered on an Individual basis, lest we end-up with mixed metaphors that have little to do with the subject at-hand.


Good luck to the patrollers
( Please be careful what you demand, lest you be permanently replaced, like my friend who was an air traffic controller in 1981, and worked Construction until he died of cancer twenty-five years later. )

Good luck -

peace, my friends

skiJ

If you actually read Piketty you will see he has nothing to do with 19th C novels. He is a French economist who studies the idea of "rents" vs wage growth over the last few centuries and has found a pretty stable level of rents at about 5% and wage growth of 2%, with an anomalous levelling in the post WWII period. His conclusion is that without government intervention--his remedy is a global wealth tax--the gap between owners and workers will inevitably keep growing. He might cite old novels because they have evidence of what wages and rents were back then, but he has many sources of information. It is a scholarly book, too extensive to fit between covers so a lot of the documentation is available online.

I put rents in quotes because I am using it the way economists do--originally it referred to what landowners charged their tenant farmers but it is used to refer to profits in the overall sense--business profits, stock market profits, bond profits, etc.

There is one kind of socialism--I used the standard definition. To expand--it is democratic ownership of the means of production--that is a democratically elected government owning the means of production. (Some French ski resorts are owned by local towns so that is socialism.) The way you use socialism is as a pejorative for an economic policy you don't like. In the same way, Capitalism as used to defend economic oppression is not an economic system--that would be capitalism small c--but an irrational faith, which is pretty much the definition of religion.

Taxation is not socialism. The income tax isn't, a wealth tax wouldn't be, Medicare--which doctors derided as socialism until it made us rich--isn't. That doesn't mean those are good things or bad things, but let's use words as they are defined. And btw, as best as I can tell, Democratic Socialism isn't socialism either, although I am a fan of Bernie, et al. (BTW who saw the look on Bernie's face when some idiot reporter tried to press him on NJ drones.)

If you want to talk about economics I do strongly recommend reading Piketty. It's 11 years old. He does predict the current political upheavals in places like the US, France, Germany, and the Netherlands--a nationalist, anti--immigrant displaced reaction to those huge wealth disparities and the economic straits of the working class.