PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

[Bunion 2020]

Well they authorized a strike, so it seems like they are demanding it.

It is 100 percent not normal for a 4 month employee to get year round insurance coverage.

# 1. the ski season is longer than 4 months. More like 5+.
# 2. Patrollers don't start the day the resort opens, there is about a month of training on the front end. that brings it to 6 months.
# 3. When I was not FT YR my company paid for my HI YR because I was considered valuable.

Just shut the fuck up about things you are clearly uninformed about.

[AdironRider]

All 300 patrollers do not work 6+ months at Park City. Nor is it common for seasonal employees to get health insurance paid year round.

I understand you want them to get this, but you are talking about what you want, not reality. Very few companies are paying that level of benefit spend for a person who works that little. Definitely not when there is a line out the door for replacements.

But continue to throw insults because you think everything in life is like the Polyass forum.

[m2711c]

Bless your heart…

[schindlerpiste]

I would bet that 75% of the PCMR patrollers work at least from 11/1 to 4/20, and a good 40-50% work from June 1-Labor Day. But clearly, the reason they are worth a salary that equals about $30-35/hr all year long is for what they do between 12/1-4/1 and 6/1-9/15. It needs to be a floating salary/wage, based upon experience, skill set, seniority and hours. ....

Vail's biggest concern (other than the bottom line) is PCMR patrollers set the stage for future battles with places like Keystone and other western resorts and NE resorts

[telefreewasatch]

Last time I responded to the thread 4 years ago about PC wanting to unionize I hadda put BakersTelemark and Dowpork on ignore.
Guess as a 42 year patroller I oughtn't have an opinion.
So I won't this time.
But: The average age of folks buying homes in this country is 56 up from 49 last year.
The future I see is bleak for career patrolmen.
Kids are gonna do it for a bit, but there aren't gonna be a buncha experienced patrol folks going forward.
And ski areas will suffer accordingly.
Willingly.

[bodywhomper]

Teacher don’t work all year long, but their benefits cover the entire calendar year, rightly so.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[F#*k you cat]

https://www.powder.com/news/keystone...t-vail-resorts

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[Core Shot]

That's a loaded question... But then this ends up in Poli-Ass.

No. Not poly ass.

No one mentioned drumpf.
Yet.

[AmmergauerTele]

I've learned over the years that pretty much everyone wants to get paid more for their work, pretty natural feeling. Most folks like to feel that they are doing the most crucial job and without them the company will suffer - but....all the jobs are important otherwise they wouldn't have them - snowmaking, grooming, lift mx, food&bev, parking, plowing, reservations, lifty, etc. I have a feeling Vail is making it difficult because they don't want to open up the floodgates for all the other resorts they own to do the same. Also, having hundreds of people applying for the same gig definitely hurts. There are certainly some barriers to entry for the job, and they are important, but the barriers aren't super high. Even at $30/hr it is going to be tough to make a living on that and live around PC with a family, that place ain't cheap.

[Foggy_Goggles]

One of the best things about TGR - we have a lot of knowledge about a lot of subjects

One of the worst things about TGR - despite said knowledge, lot of people just spew about shit that they have no idea about

I'm not a patroller - many of my friends are and have 10+ years of experience is the more senior/critical roles so here's what I see.

Health Insurance - many ski area employees highly value the benefits. It's a standard ski town set up where one person will be a contractor/realtor/or other generally high paid but inconsistent worker with no benefits. The other will work for a ski area for generally good family benefits.

Range of Skill Sets on Patrol - for sure there is a big difference between the Jr. (1 to 3 year) experience rank and file 'troller that basically does the ranching on skis and minor medical and the Sr. patrollers that may be supervisors, snow safety, lift evac., med. trainers., EMTs and so on. But you don't get the Sr.s without taking care of the Jr.s.

It is a physically dangerous job much of which can't be mitigated - Winter Park is open something like 150 days a year. That's a lot of skiing. And you are trying to stay healthy doing it. Avalanches, collisions, frostbite, ACLs and so on.

The vibe of the ski area staff is critical to the good times. Wanker has great lifties and patrol. It really helps keep the stoke up and thats what I'm there for.

Living Wage Jobs - I know close to nothing about unions but I do know about paying the bills. It is not unique to ski patrollers or mountain towns. So you can go on about supply and demand in the labor market and opine on the value to society all you want. But we need to move the conversation to many jobs need to pay more.

I know you bitches and your kids are better than average, so you are all pulling down six figures plotting the purchase for your next Euro Status Wagon. But be real. Stop with the performative compassion and realize that income (wealth?) disparity creates this giant wedge in society that many don't want to talk about. Its systemic. People need to make more money. Its part of the societal contract. Work your 40. Pay rent. Make a car payment. Groceries. Eat out once every couple of weeks. Take one decent vacation a year.

But no body wants to give up shit. The basic bitch middle class think that are the smartest fucker around expecting others to solve their faux problems.

Think about it. You are fucking skiing. On a Thursday. Working "Remote". And you want to chime in about wages for the service industry that are cupping your ball on the daily? Fuck...right...off. Or at least own it.

So yeah, $75k a year. What would happen? Ohh, the asset bubble might leak some air. Who cares.

[byates1]

Euro status wagon. Lol

[Foggy_Goggles]

https://alterra.wd1.myworkdayjobs.co...Round_JR114799

https://careers.compassgroupcareers....ort_order=DESC

And the wage scale and Winter Park seems to be getting worse?

So yeah, I have no idea how they staff the place. At the entry level, I think they have enough Employee Housing to just make it happen with the seasonal staff. And all the middle managers are the 40-55year old crowd that has stable housing and frequently a higher paying second income in the home.

So same old same old...and F & B has been subcontracted to a concessionaire that specializes in the J1 process and pays $19/hr.

But yeah, "powder bro"! Its not a job, its a party right?

[SnowMachine]

Or the lift maintenance personnel perched 50 ft up, in 50mph winds at -5f.

Yeah, lift maintenance and snow making take skills, too. I maintain what I said. The diversity of skills required to patrol is pretty high. Plus patrol works in shittier conditions than snow makers. Lift maintenance could make a closer argument. Either way they're all skilled positions and underpaid.

[SnowMachine]

Having to get health insurance through your employment is what is not normal. No other fucking country does this bullshit.

Because our medical system in this country is completely fucking broken. I was talking to a friend the other day that is self employed and pays $2600/mo to insure his family of 4. Holy fuck.

[Bunion 2020]

But yeah, "powder bro"! Its not a job, its a party right?

And that right there is what so many people fail to understand. The party became a job about 10 years ago when you could no longer find reasonable housing in ski towns. And if companies like Vail etc want to provide what they label as a world class guest experience then it is going to cost them some money, god knows they are charging enough.

[skaredshtles]

Because our medical system in this country is completely fucking broken. I was talking to a friend the other day that is self employed and pays $2600/mo to insure his family of 4. Holy fuck.

This right here. x Eleventy billion



ETA: We should toss in the abysmal public transit situation as well.

[SnowMachine]

One of the best things about TGR - we have a lot of knowledge about a lot of subjects

One of the worst things about TGR - despite said knowledge, lot of people just spew about shit that they have no idea about

I'm not a patroller - many of my friends are and have 10+ years of experience is the more senior/critical roles so here's what I see.

Health Insurance - many ski area employees highly value the benefits. It's a standard ski town set up where one person will be a contractor/realtor/or other generally high paid but inconsistent worker with no benefits. The other will work for a ski area for generally good family benefits.

Range of Skill Sets on Patrol - for sure there is a big difference between the Jr. (1 to 3 year) experience rank and file 'troller that basically does the ranching on skis and minor medical and the Sr. patrollers that may be supervisors, snow safety, lift evac., med. trainers., EMTs and so on. But you don't get the Sr.s without taking care of the Jr.s.

It is a physically dangerous job much of which can't be mitigated - Winter Park is open something like 150 days a year. That's a lot of skiing. And you are trying to stay healthy doing it. Avalanches, collisions, frostbite, ACLs and so on.

The vibe of the ski area staff is critical to the good times. Wanker has great lifties and patrol. It really helps keep the stoke up and thats what I'm there for.

Living Wage Jobs - I know close to nothing about unions but I do know about paying the bills. It is not unique to ski patrollers or mountain towns. So you can go on about supply and demand in the labor market and opine on the value to society all you want. But we need to move the conversation to many jobs need to pay more.

I know you bitches and your kids are better than average, so you are all pulling down six figures plotting the purchase for your next Euro Status Wagon. But be real. Stop with the performative compassion and realize that income (wealth?) disparity creates this giant wedge in society that many don't want to talk about. Its systemic. People need to make more money. Its part of the societal contract. Work your 40. Pay rent. Make a car payment. Groceries. Eat out once every couple of weeks. Take one decent vacation a year.

But no body wants to give up shit. The basic bitch middle class think that are the smartest fucker around expecting others to solve their faux problems.

Think about it. You are fucking skiing. On a Thursday. Working "Remote". And you want to chime in about wages for the service industry that are cupping your ball on the daily? Fuck...right...off. Or at least own it.

So yeah, $75k a year. What would happen? Ohh, the asset bubble might leak some air. Who cares.

Hard for me to argue with you. If there's a position that I don't want to see turn over in, it's patrol. Maybe doesn't matter as much at some mountains. My home hill is big and dangerous. Being a patroller there is the real deal. A couple of my buddies have told me that I should patrol. I've worked there 3 years as a Big Mountain coach. Fuck no to patrolling. Not that I couldn't, but the comp package just isn't enough better than mine and my job is cush as shit.

My opinion on health benefits: coverage while they're in season with a employee pay option to keep coverage in the off season.

Let's face it, that's just a fact of mountain town life. A lot of us are seasonally employed. I have medical through my wife, but a lot of people don't have that luxury.

[Foggy_Goggles]

@snowmachine

Snowmakers literally make the bad weather. As the temps drop and we go home, they punch in. They only work when It's cold. They use air and water to make snow. Its fucking miserable. Its three in the morning and the wind whips up? Better get on the snowmobile and check all the guns because the snow might be going in the woods.

Not that any of that matters. But that's a strange hill to die on.

But yeah, we just trade living wage jobs for profits and just act as apologists and go on with our soft lives.

Here in the Fraser River Valley, Wendy's is always hiring and they put the starting wage on the sign outside. I think they are at $26/hr. So if you don't pay fast food wages...I say fuck you.

[SnowMachine]

https://alterra.wd1.myworkdayjobs.co...Round_JR114799

https://careers.compassgroupcareers....ort_order=DESC

And the wage scale and Winter Park seems to be getting worse?

So yeah, I have no idea how they staff the place. At the entry level, I think they have enough Employee Housing to just make it happen with the seasonal staff. And all the middle managers are the 40-55year old crowd that has stable housing and frequently a higher paying second income in the home.

So same old same old...and F & B has been subcontracted to a concessionaire that specializes in the J1 process and pays $19/hr.

But yeah, "powder bro"! Its not a job, its a party right?

That's some shitass wages. Almost insulting. The marketing manager is the only decent wage listed.

I made $50/hr as a mechanic 20 years ago. Good luck living in a mountain town on 1/2 of that. Sure as a single guy, but with a family??

[SnowMachine]

@snowmachine

Snowmakers literally make the bad weather. As the temps drop and we go home, they punch in. They only work when It's cold. They use air and water to make snow. Its fucking miserable. Its three in the morning and the wind whips up? Better get on the snowmobile and check all the guns because the snow might be going in the woods.

Not that any of that matters. But that's a strange hill to die on.

But yeah, we just trade living wage jobs for profits and just act as apologists and go on with our soft lives.

Here in the Fraser River Valley, Wendy's is always hiring and they put the starting wage on the sign outside. I think they are at $26/hr. So if you don't pay fast food wages...I say fuck you.

I wont argue that it's a shitty fucking job. I guess I'm basing some of my comments upon where I live/work. Our snowmakers are basically off duty by Jan for the season.

Any job where you can't hire unskilled labor to walk in and do it should get a decent wage. I'm not trying to insult anybody. I'm purely commenting that I think experienced patrollers are highly skilled.

As a mechanic, I'm definitely not going to shit on guys like lift maintenance. I won't do that job. I have a ton of respect for anybody willing to turn wrenches in those conditions.

[zion zig zag]

@snowmachine

Snowmakers literally make the bad weather. As the temps drop and we go home, they punch in. They only work when It's cold. They use air and water to make snow. Its fucking miserable. Its three in the morning and the wind whips up? Better get on the snowmobile and check all the guns because the snow might be going in the woods.

Not that any of that matters. But that's a strange hill to die on.

But yeah, we just trade living wage jobs for profits and just act as apologists and go on with our soft lives.

Here in the Fraser River Valley, Wendy's is always hiring and they put the starting wage on the sign outside. I think they are at $26/hr. So if you don't pay fast food wages...I say fuck you.

My son has done snowmaking and patrol. And I'd have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure that he would say snowmaking is harder/shittier work.

[zion zig zag]

I think the change I've watched in the patrol world around here is strange and I'm guessing isn't the norm everywhere. 25 years ago there were lot's of long time trollers at the local resort and a lot of them had bought houses because homes were affordable. When you caught up with them at the start of the season and asked how summer was, most of them would tell you about how they spent the summer wildland ff/building trails/guiding/building houses/landscaping etc. Now when I ask about summers its a 50/50 chance that they'll either tell you about a summer job or how they spent the summer surfing in Australia, MTB in Peru/traveling some far off place, etc. And now those are the ones that own homes. And the ones that worked are barely scraping by in an inflated rent apartment.

It seems like there has been a rise in hobbyist patrollers who obviously don't need the money. Of course this is strictly observational and may be totally off base. And none of that is to say they don't deserve more, but the hobbyist trollers offer a steady stream of employees that will do it for any pay I'm guessing.

[Bunion 2020]

It seems like there has been a rise in hobbyist patrollers who obviously don't need the money. Of course this is strictly observational and may be totally off base. And none of that is to say they don't deserve more, but the hobbyist trollers offer a steady stream of employees that will do it for any pay I'm guessing.

You are not off base, I have seen a lot of the same things but then again ski towns do attract trusties.

[skiJ]

magg.s -
I appreciate the desire to see wages at the ski resort rise, and I believe they do, ever so slowly...

I have experience in ski patrol, and experience in a 'union-represented position' unrelated to the ski industry ;
while I would be happy for ski area employees to be paid more, I try to be realistic -
it is said up-thread that patrollers have a month of training at the start of the season, adding four weeks to their employment
( 128hours - 160hours ) ;
If you were able to get this training time paid by your resort, that's great ! and I do not believe that is the [ norm. ] ;
There is also a claim that 40%-50% of PCMPSA works 6-1 through 9-15 as mtn.bike patrol -
I understand this to mean 120 -150 Full-time mtn. bike patrollers
( that could be, I don't know. The author offered a "bet" ) .

it was also offered that PCMRs will be Open until 4-20 -
I recognize that there is a tradition to be open until Easter, and Maybe that will be possible
( last season, by making snow into March, Snowriver was able to be Open Easter weekend, and I believe the last four weeks of the season, they were open four days, weekly ) --
so, Good luck being open until 4-20 at 6,890 feet.

burying the stuff I hope is relevant,
I still believe much of [ski patrol] is seasonal Work - from sometime In November(,) until early April ( many places ) ;
five months would be 640hours - 800hours.
for those that are part of a bike patrol, Add time.

There is certainly a place for Medical Care staff at a year 'round resort, but I am not aware of a ski resort that needs 300 medical providers in the summer --

so how do we reconcile the desire to see those working 700 - 800 hours/ season with an income of 70,000 / year ( And add medical insurance to that ) ?
If the patrollers average 25 / hour for even 800 hours, that's 20G ;
If you want to pay 300 patrollers an additional 50G, that's 15M ( 15million. for one resort, annually ).
That is more than 'a little air' --

My congratulations to those who were able to turn patrolling into a career occupation.
The last data I saw, the average tenure in ski patrol is less than five years; the average tenure of EMTs in EMS is less than seven years.

I was glad that people returned to skiing in 2021 as outdoor recreation was encouraged as part of the response to the covid pandemic ;
I am concerned that the 'sport' may again price itself out of the general population .

I read that PCMPSPA had settled 25 of 27 contract issues - only Compensation ( wages and an equipment stipend ) remain.


Good luck to the patrollers --

( skiJ )

[summit]

1. I hope the patrol prevails

2. Virtually nobody gets paid what they think they deserve based on social good. People get paid what they are willing to work for just so long as there are not enough others aren't willing to work for less. Supply v Demand.

3. Ski patrol is easily oversupplied/resupplied. Ski patrol is a low barrier to entry, mostly seasonal job that is perceived as a glamorous interlude with great job perks, and not a career. There will always be another crop of gap-year HS grads and early-twenty somethings willing to move to "paradise" and work unsustainably low wages for a season or three since all you need is a moderate level of snow riding skill and a 3 month vocational cert (that you could get in 1 month, or that some patrols will train you on).

4. Resorts benefit greatly from low experience newer patrollers, but also need to develop and retain a cadre of experienced and higher skilled patrollers. Most resorts suck at this due to poor pay and poor management.