Turner's dropping Horst/ICT

[bagtagley]

http://www.turnerbikes.com/TNT/index.html

Ruh-roh. Funny that they've touted the FSR design as the suspension design for all these year, but now it's just meh. Also funny that they've effectively made it...ineffective just in the name of less derailleur noise.

Still some of the nicest bikes around, but it will be interesting to see how this effects them. I never new that Turner had to pay Tony Ellsworth as well as Specialized. Probably a good reason to switch to faux-bar.

http://ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131664

[Particle]

Yah I saw all that over there...too funny. They are kind of shooting themselves in the foot from a marketing perspective.

I'll stick with Foes for my boutique brand

[Arty50]

Hmmmm...my opinion on this is so what.

What has always amazed me about my 5 Spot is the totally balanced feel I've had on it since day one. Yes, the suspension kicks ass. But that feel is like no other bike I've ridden. And this was without the benefit of a "professional fitting." I just jumped on the damn thing, changed the stem for a shorter one, and have been rockin' ever since. Sure other bikes have Horst, and sure others have plain jane 4-bar. But comparing bikes based on that only takes into account the basic suspension design. It totally ignores the rest of the geometry of the bike. And this is where I think Dave Turner and his bikes excel.

[Tap]

as a horst-link Turner owner, i'm watching this unfold with interested bemusement.

First off, i love my bike and will never part with it. NEVER. don't ask.

Second, I can't imagine that Dave Turner actually wanted to change to faux-bar. His connection to Horst Leitner was a real asset to his marketing and the performance of the frame (of course, performance is debatable - cue armchair engineers). But the guy is a businessman, bottom line. If indeed he was forced to smoke too much Specialized and Ellsworth pole, then maybe the move to faux-bar was a difficult but necessary financial decision.

And if he is forced to put some marketing spin on it in order to make it sound good, then so be it.


on a side note, my '03 Spot just went up in value

[Spats]

Without being able to look at actual legal documents, I'd guess that Ellsworth is the problem here. Specialized has licensed the Horst patent to any number of companies (Intense, Iron Horse, Turner, Ellsworth, Nicolai, and so on), and the Nicolai website claims the patent costs them about $15-20 per frame. Not a deal killer.

It's interesting that Turner believes that going to a seatstay pivot is better than changing the Horst link geometry to not infringe ICT. He's a smart guy, so I'm sure he's thought about and tested this.

The irony of ICT is that Ellsworth's marketing and patent claims are wrong: physics doesn't do what he says it does. It does result in a bike that rides and pedals pretty well, but not for the reasons he claims.

[phatfreeheeler]

As an Ellsworth ID owner and an engineer who was formerly involved in automobile race suspension development with Delphi, I'll be interested to see how this plays out. It's a difficult marketing move. Dave Turner is a very respected bike designer, but I would have been far more impressed if he would have gone back to the drawing board and come up with something more original. I like to see truly new stuff though.

As far as patents go, I'm for them most of the time (hell I have a few). Without patents, everyone could just copy everything in some cheap manufacturing facility oversees and import it right back to the US. He who has the biggest marketing budget and cheapest manufacturing would always win. It still usually holds true, but at least patents often give the little guy/girl, who came up with the original thought, the legal ground to stand on. Oh, and many patents have false reasoning listed in the claims, some of this is sometimes actually done on purpose in my experience to help confuse the competition and broaden the claims coverage (I’m not sure of the situation with Tony’s). Also, you can patent an idea without fully knowing why it works. Sometimes that’s the only way you can protect it early enough in the design phase, and some inventors never really know why their widget works. That doesn’t mean they can’t patent it. I would never defend anyone I don’t know, but I also wouldn't condemn them. After all, I’m sure they can’t talk about the situation at this time and we are just speculating.

This whole thing has peaked my engineering side and got me interested in looking more closely at bike suspension. My “current” belief is that shock technology has helped exponentially. Designs that most people ragged on 5 years ago are now all the rage. From my experience, most people need to use a slightly underdamped shock without any form of platform (be it speed sensitive blow off valving, or increased slow speed damping) to really feel differences in linkage geometry. At least this is the best experimental method I’ve seen used. It works great to prove a point in automobile suspension design. You can show it on a computer (rather easily today) but many people won’t believe unless they can feel it. Lying to the driver is a good technique too.

I also will agree, my ID rides and pedals very nice indeed, and I will never get rid of it. Although, I am now thinking a bigger, and more durable bike is in my future. Due to my decreased budget (read “formerly” in my first sentence) and the fact that I plan to beat on it, I’ll probably buy something cheap rather than base my decision on pedaling performance or linkage design. Sorry I went on for so long.

[Arty50]

What's really funny is all the blathering about how people buy Turners based on the Horst link design. I know several people who own a Turner, and none of them even considered that. In every case (including mine), the person got the bike because a friend of theirs had either professed their undying love for the bike or let the potential buyer ride it for a bit. So if the suspension switch changes the ride quality noticably, I can see there being an effect. But if the change is unnoticeable I don't see why it will affect their sales. In the end, I'm willing to bet the change has no noticeable effect on Turner's sales.

[bagtagley]

In the end, I'm willing to bet the change has no noticeable effect on Turner's sales.

I hope you're right, Arty. It sort of makes you wonder how many people (outside the miniscule population of over-analysing forum nerds) are even aware of the "benefits" or even the existence of the Horst link design.

Regardless, I'm still working on a way to put the Highline into the rotation next season.

[Arty50]

Regardless, I'm still working on a way to put the Highline into the rotation next season.

I'm jealous. That should be a killer bike.

On a related note the DHR has never been a Horstlink bike, neither is the Highline. So Turner hasn't really staked it's "reputation" on being a Horstlink company. Especially considering the fact the DHR is considered one of the best downhill bikes built.

[Particle]

Turners are gay. Not gat. GAY! They look like glorified XC bikes. GAY. GAY GAY. Stupid Turners... Foes, Santa Cruz, Intense, ROOLZ YOU! GAY Turners. Shit.

(how many threads can I push to the top???!)

[Tap]

Turners are gay. Not gat. GAY! They look like glorified XC bikes. GAY. GAY GAY. Stupid Turners... Foes, Santa Cruz, Intense, ROOLZ YOU! GAY Turners. Shit.

(how many threads can I push to the top???!)

depends how big of a fag you feel like being

[Tap]

Bag's future Turner Highline



cue the sound of millions of tiny dirt particles screaming out in pain

[Particle]

Bag's future Turner Highline

Siiiick. Definitely not gat/gay.

[wintermittent]

The Flux and Six Pack I rode last week at Interbike had the new TNT "faux bar" linkage.

I did a double-take AFTER the first lap out on the Flux... Didn't even notice the Horst link went buh-bye until the Turner crew told me. I then proceeded to thrash a Six Pack, with plenty of ham-fisted, hard rear braking. No noticeable brake jack or any other stand-out traits.

The new Turners ride like... well, Turners. Fast, stable, and a rock-solid rear suspension feel.

[bagtagley]

The Flux and Six Pack I rode last week at Interbike had the new TNT "faux bar" linkage.

I did a double-take AFTER the first lap out on the Flux... Didn't even notice the Horst link went buh-bye until the Turner crew told me. I then proceeded to thrash a Six Pack, with plenty of ham-fisted, hard rear braking. No noticeable brake jack or any other stand-out traits.

The new Turners ride like... well, Turners. Fast, stable, and a rock-solid rear suspension feel.

1) I hate you for being able to go to Interbike, AND I hate you for living so close to the NEW Ray's.

2) I've been reading great reviews all over the place. Certainly promising, though most people submitted that the terrain wasn't sufficiently rough/steep/rocky to test for brake squat, which is the one thing a Horst Link (supposedly) has the greatest effect on. What's your feeling on this?

Having ridden both faux-bar bikes and horst link bikes, the difference when braking on a fast, bumpy section is noticeable. The faux-bar bikes have that tendency to squat into their travel and get squirrely, whereas the HL bike, though far from perfect brakers, are much more apt to continue soaking up the terrain. I'm just curious as to how DT has overcome this inherent trait of a suspension design that behaves more like a single pivot than a HL.

PS, I started this thread mostly as a PSA, not to knock Turner. Though I'll admit, the Horst-Link was one of many things that attracted me to their bikes. I understand that fit, finish, balance and geometry are just as important as suspension design, if not more so. AND, as a Bullit owner, I'm not super concerned about brake squat anyway. I still plan on beg/borrowing/stealing my way into a Highline.

[wintermittent]

Certainly promising, though most people submitted that the terrain wasn't sufficiently rough/steep/rocky to test for brake squat, which is the one thing a Horst Link (supposedly) has the greatest effect on. What's your feeling on this?

Rough and rocky? Pretty rough with medium-sized rock drops and obstacles. Steep? Meh, only a few spots. Personally, I felt like there were enough gullies, whoops, and DH washboard sections to get the bikes up to speed and get a good impression of suspension characteristics (as long as you didn't get caught behind the hundreds of pokey gaper riders). Then again, "most people" stuck to the "official" demo loops and gat DH run. Bootleg Canyon has LOTS of trails.

Having ridden both faux-bar bikes and horst link bikes, the difference when braking on a fast, bumpy section is noticeable. The faux-bar bikes have that tendency to squat into their travel and get squirrely, whereas the HL bike, though far from perfect brakers, are much more apt to continue soaking up the terrain. I'm just curious as to how DT has overcome this inherent trait of a suspension design that behaves more like a single pivot than a HL.

I agree with you 100% about your brake squat observation. Up until now, Horst link-equipped bikes have been much less chattery under braking when compared to a vanilla four-bar linkage. However, my gut feeling is that the arrival of newer shock technologies (platform valving and blow-off threshold tuning in particular) have mostly negated the benefits of the Horst linkage by making faux-bar linkages track much better and jack/squat much less. You have much more time and experience with four bar bikes than I have, though, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts when you have a chance to throw a leg over a Highline or other faux-bar Turner.

My '05 Horst link Turner Flux is SOOO close to being built up (hopefully this weekend). Arty is right about the Turner "feel" -- The geometry, balance, and solid linkage feel of Turner's bikes really are second to none other bike I've ever ridden. This was even more clear to me at the I-Bike dirt demo, where I had the chance to swap bikes every lap. Sucka.

You know you've got places to crash here in CLE if you can swing a trip to Ray's this season, should you be in the region.

[bagtagley]

Then again, "most people" stuck to the "official" demo loops and gat DH run. Bootleg Canyon has LOTS of trails.

That's a valid point, and something I hadn't considered.

You know you've got places to crash here in CLE if you can swing a trip to Ray's this season, should you be in the region.

Thanks for the offer, I might just take you up on that.

[Arty50]

Bag's future Turner Highline

Mikey likes it! While I hold that bike thieves should be drawn, quartered, and hung; I would be willing to undertake all of those for just one ride on that sucker. Hey bag, what's your address? I need to...uhhhhh...send you something.

Also, thanks for the review, wintermittent. I'm glad to hear things are alright on the Turner front.

[Tap]

in flight....


almost full compression.....



SICK!