"Underground" Trans-Style Enduro Stage Race... Think it'd Work?

[smmokan]

I did the Trans BC Enduro this summer and loved it... and I like the idea of having something really hard on the calendar to work and train for. Unfortunately, there's a pretty small number of similar events, even fewer in North America - so I was thinking about creating an unofficial "event" that would be open to anyone that wants to do it.

- Three or four days of big days on the bike, all based in one location
- Location changes every year
- Can do it solo or with a group of friends
- Do it on your own schedule within a set timeframe (ie., August '25), days must be consecutive
- Racers deal with their own meals, transportation, lodging, etc
- Stage times will be from Strava segments
- If there are shuttles involved, I'd try to make logistics simple or coordinate with an existing shuttle service
- No entry fee

I wonder if there's enough interest if it was purely underground / not official and it was all word of mouth? We might be able to get a couple small sponsors for prizes, etc, but I'm sure there are unnecessary regulations on anything formal when it comes to the USFS, etc. I'd be willing to build out a website, put together the stages each year, and track participants and results each year since that's pretty minimal work.

[toast2266]

I really like this idea. There are some many cool areas that could be the venue for a great race.

Back during covid, I put together some low key strava based enduros. No entry fee, no prize. Just a low key race.

The problems I found were that strava times are too unreliable for a race. Not just that they're not particularly accurate, but also that some racers would go do the course only to find that strava didn't register one of the segments or produced some other error that was large enough to completely kill their time.

I also found that, since the times are public, people would look at their time, look at the leader's time, and then not bother submitting their time (or deleting their ride) if it wasn't pretty good. Which seems like a dumb approach to a low key race, but that's how it went. So it made the results kinda lame since there were a lot less people on the results sheet than people that rode the course.

Without spending a bunch of money, I don't know how else to run an enduro race. But the timing definitely presents problems.



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[bennymac]

Yeah I’ve done a handful of grassroots/underground enduros with Strava as the timing system. There are always issues - but that’s (of course) the trade off for not having to set up burdensome timing systems.

As long as everyone is there for fun for the most part it shouldn’t be an issue? I’d say 2/3rds of the time I’ve had some timing issue (didn’t register - or Strava picked me up waiting well back of segment start so my 2 minute race run records as 10 minutes or whatever).

People should know in advance that timing is by Strava and to expect hiccups and be happy if there isn’t - and that any complaining about that can be taken up with Strava and not the organizers of your fun times.

A fun day and some free beer and burgers and some door prizes should be enough for reasonable people to laugh and shrug off timing issues. Unreasonable people can stick to expensive enduros with robust timing systems if they want.

[XXX-er]

Fuck, I was gona turn pro

[rideit]

We have something local here called Stravaduro. Not a stage race, but similar in spirit. Once a week, some great local ‘enduro’ loop, do it anytime in the week. VERY informal, seriousness discouraged by most involved. Really fun!

[evdog]

You could definitely make it work. Not Enduro, but we have tons of underground races here. It's really on the honor system that people don't cheat. But with no prizes and no promotion why would they? Now that I've said that a few have been caught cutting courses or other things and they were called out for it by other riders.

A few things... They really only run the events on forest service land now. FS has a 75 person limit before needing a permit (includes participants and anyone else present). Many races limit to 60 riders to stay well below. Having riders do their race on days of their choosing would help even more. BLM and some cities shut these events down. BLM required permit, insurance etc. Cities got complaints from hikers. So do it using trails that hikers seldom use. You could have riders self time their sections as a backup. Take selfie at top showing a specific marker and at bottom with same and a screen shot of timer, or something like that. We just leave a sign in sheet at the finish area.

[D(C)]

We did a Strava-timed race series among friends during covid. Timing issues were as discussed by others here.

Doing it again, I’d consider doing it self-timed with a stopwatch, on the honour system. The challenge with that would be making sure everyone knows the course.

[smmokan]

Yeah, obviously the timing aspect using Strava is the main problem, but like you guys have said... this isn't an official race, and it's mostly just for fun and for the challenge. Assuming racers used the Strava group (or maybe something else like a FB or Reddit group?) I think you could also meet up with some super cool people and make it more social than just riding with your buddies, too. Personally, I thought that was the coolest part of the Trans BC as someone who wasn't in it for a podium spot - meeting and riding with like-minded people from all over North America.

[Roxtar]

I ran the Los Alamos Enduro for a few years and we used a timing system that was available to download on your phone. I don't remember what it was (and truthfully, I let a "techy" friend deal with it).
I wonder if there is anything like that available now.
Granted, you'd need to have dedicated timing people which might be a deal-breaker.

[smmokan]

Granted, you'd need to have dedicated timing people which might be a deal-breaker.

Yep, definitely a deal breaker.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I support this idea. There is a local XC series doing this. I think it works ok for that discipline since the stages/days are long. The inaccuracy of Strava doesn't lend so well to 5 or 10 minute segments.

Quick google and I guess people have made their own RFID timing systems. Could have a "pint night" where people can pick up a chip.....race over various weekends (like Stage 3 is open from "Friday 5pm to Sunday 5pm") and then compile times after 4 weekends or something. Still requires at least one person to go ride the stages and setup/pickup the equipment.

From what I understand of the FS with my involvement with the local MTB non-profit is that it varies from state to state, forest to forest, district to district......but for the most part they are grossly understaffed to police guerrilla MTB races.

Ok, rambling thought that just came to me: Cellular trail cameras! A pair of them at costco is 99 bucks. All photos are time stamped. Each rider registers under a pseudonym and wears a certain color shirt/jersey. "Purple Shirt Guy passed the tree at the start of stage at X time and the designated tree at the end of stage at X time"

[Full Trucker]

I do think it could work and possibly even be pretty popular if the word got around and it was fun.

Love the idea of the event moving around to different locations. The model that a lot of the singlespeed events have is that participants can compete in some sort of shenanigans to win the privilege of "hosting" the event the next year. Even if it's the race is underground it'll probably still be work to put on so if you get people stoked on hosting, they can also help with promoting and running it or whatever.

Of all the "underground" style events that I know of, there's usually/always an "actual" day where there'd be some kind of support (often "potluck" style), shuttles coordinated, some kind of "official" timing happening, etc. And generally, even if the event can be done anytime during a set timeframe the vast majority of the people attend on the "actual" day if there is one. It gives people an impetus to actually plan and attend. I had the same experience at TranSierra as you did at TransBC, meeting and riding with like-minded people from all over the world, so it seems facilitating that by having an "actual" day (or days in this case) would be cool.

Timing doesn't need to be expensive to be accurate, but it would take effort. See this discussion on Ridemonkey for some other ideas that don't get kicked around in this thread. Strava probably would mostly work just fine, and is the most hands-off solution.

If the event has less than 75 people (including people running and/or spectating the event) and there's no entry fee, then no permit is required. And near as I can tell, if there's no "actual" day then it's probably even less of an issue. https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/carso...d=FSEPRD862808

Are you thinking one stage/day, or multiple? If multiple, would racers be required to ride not only the race stages but also pre-determined liaisons? Example: let's say the two stages for the day are Greens and Fooses. Would you care if people shuttled up to the pass in between, or would you want to have an "enforced" a liaison up N. Fooses road? Personally, I would think the route is the route, and has to include the liaisons even if they aren't timed. But this is a detail that doesn't need to be decided yet.

[Roxtar]

Are you thinking one stage/day, or multiple? If multiple, would racers be required to ride not only the race stages but also pre-determined liaisons? Example: let's say the two stages for the day are Greens and Fooses. Would you care if people shuttled up to the pass in between, or would you want to have an "enforced" a liaison up N. Fooses road? Personally, I would think the route is the route, and has to include the liaisons even if they aren't timed. But this is a detail that doesn't need to be decided yet.

Too many rules.
KICS (keep it casual...)

I see it being a very cool way to facilitate maggot gettogethers. Sort of like the Whole Enchilada gatherings of yore.
Got a few cool, raceable, local trails you're proud of? Pick a date and post it to guage interest and go from there.

[smmokan]

Are you thinking one stage/day, or multiple? If multiple, would racers be required to ride not only the race stages but also pre-determined liaisons? Example: let's say the two stages for the day are Greens and Fooses. Would you care if people shuttled up to the pass in between, or would you want to have an "enforced" a liaison up N. Fooses road? Personally, I would think the route is the route, and has to include the liaisons even if they aren't timed. But this is a detail that doesn't need to be decided yet.

Yeah, thinking of putting together full routes for each day (GPX files included, since that's easy), with 3-4 stages within that route for a total of 10-12 stages across the event.

Also, the idea of setting out cameras or timers and coordinating a meetup event are beyond what I want, especially since I won't live anywhere close to where the "race" would be held each year. If I wanted to worry about the logistics of timing and coordinating people, then I'd create a formal event and try to make money off it. But I already went down that rabbit hole with the FS here in CO and it's nearly impossible, so this is the alternative.

[grskier]

I support this idea. There is a local XC series doing this. I think it works ok for that discipline since the stages/days are long. The inaccuracy of Strava doesn't lend so well to 5 or 10 minute segments.

Quick google and I guess people have made their own RFID timing systems. Could have a "pint night" where people can pick up a chip.....race over various weekends (like Stage 3 is open from "Friday 5pm to Sunday 5pm") and then compile times after 4 weekends or something. Still requires at least one person to go ride the stages and setup/pickup the equipment.

From what I understand of the FS with my involvement with the local MTB non-profit is that it varies from state to state, forest to forest, district to district......but for the most part they are grossly understaffed to police guerrilla MTB races.

Ok, rambling thought that just came to me: Cellular trail cameras! A pair of them at costco is 99 bucks. All photos are time stamped. Each rider registers under a pseudonym and wears a certain color shirt/jersey. "Purple Shirt Guy passed the tree at the start of stage at X time and the designated tree at the end of stage at X time"

pictures of participants... what could go wrong.

I toyed with an idea like this, but our trails are busy enough with strava time chasers... then I thought it would be good to do on some of the less traveled trails here, but a lot of them are out of cell range and that seems like an extra liability.

[BFD]

My son has been racing the Alaska wilderness classic. Everyone starts at the same time. You just write your finish time on a sheet of paper when done.

[XtrPickels]

Yeah, obviously the timing aspect using Strava is the main problem, but like you guys have said... this isn't an official race, and it's mostly just for fun and for the challenge. Assuming racers used the Strava group (or maybe something else like a FB or Reddit group?) I think you could also meet up with some super cool people and make it more social than just riding with your buddies, too. Personally, I thought that was the coolest part of the Trans BC as someone who wasn't in it for a podium spot - meeting and riding with like-minded people from all over North America.

Caley Fretz did a XC-duro themed underground event here a few years back. Might be worth reaching out to him to see if you can get some learnings.

[nickwm21]

I’ve never participated in a multiday stage race but I assume that part of the draw is how they shuttle your camp gear from spot to spot while you ride. So without that - this is just a community race in a different format?


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[smmokan]

That’s not part of the draw (for me at least), nor is it really a thing for most of the enduro stage races out there.

But in general, yes- this is a grass-roots, unsanctioned enduro stage race that’s free to participate in in order to push yourself and have fun. Nothing formal or supported about it.

[jamal]

Strava segment timing isn't that big of an issue if you use good segments and people know how to ride them. I'd say most issues with segment times come from segments that start or end near a bunch of switchbacks (so sometimes it counts you as starting/finishing early or late) or when riders are starting/ stopping too close to the start/end of a segment. And you should be using an actual gps device and not a phone app.

I'd say the bigger issue is just trying to do this on trails open to the public and other users. Like sure some races do that but at least there are usually course marshalls and warning signs and it's only happening for a few hours. A whole week of people trying to ride enduro race runs down trails is probably not going to turn out well unless they're all directional, bike only trails.

[bennymac]

My son has been racing the Alaska wilderness classic. Everyone starts at the same time. You just write your finish time on a sheet of paper when done.

Now that is badassery on a whole nother level.

As you know there is a huge gulf between the type of people who do that race and the type of person that deletes their Strava segment in a funduro because they didn’t set the fastest time

[XXX-er]

the same type of people who alter the trails to get a faster time

so the longtime/ long suffering builder trys to put blowdown on the trail edge to stop trail braiding ,

the stravassholes move it , the game goes back and forth eventuay drag the blowdown way into the bush,

the builder finaly gives up but I don't think its a good idea to piss off the builder

[GeorgiaSnow]

Very cool idea smmokan. Have you done the 4 Seasons of Horsetooth up here? It just relies on GPX files and it’s fun and chill. You could probably look at their rules and FAQs pages to get some ideas. I think no entry, multiple day window, and clear route make it pretty doable. Keep us updated.

[muted reborn]

A whole week of people trying to ride enduro race runs down trails is probably not going to turn out well unless they're all directional, bike only trails.

the same type of people who alter the trails to get a faster time

so the longtime/ long suffering builder trys to put blowdown on the trail edge to stop trail braiding ,

the stravassholes move it , the game goes back and forth eventuay drag the blowdown way into the bush,

the builder finaly gives up but I don't think its a good idea to piss off the builder

Agreed, I'd say stop making everything a fucking competition and learn how to be outdoors just to be outdoors.

[One (+) Sentence]

This timing system is relatively affordable and gaining popularity with ski clubs and NICA programs
https://www.freelapusa.com/