Where should I do my Europe camp?

[truth]

I've never been in Europe without a car and I think we might miss out on some oppurtunities without our own transportation.

You'd never get to Euro Disney without one, and that would suck.

[lph]

Yes. No vacation days and no money makes Arty go...

Don't worry I'll take pics and video.

[str8line]

Don't worry I'll take pics and video.

And I'll send a postcard.



And maybe some stinky cheese.

[Mr. Altagirl]

Although I think LaGrave would probably be the best bet, hasn't it already been done (by Coombs)? I still think it would be very cool.

While I lived in Europe for 8 years, St. Anton was the only place I ALWAYS went to multiple times a year. The Arlberg is so big with some very rowdy terrain that you could work for months, never mind a week. Public transportation is pretty easy from Munich or Innsbruck but a tour would be really cool. Don't forget you could cut through Garmisch, eat/party and ski the Zugspitz. Not a bad stop. Lastly, the Krazy Kangaroo / Moosevert in St Anton....need I say more?

Milan is also so easy to travel to and from as well with everything to the North and West to pick from. Hard to say.

If you ever want to go back to the Dolomites, please let me know, we are there as tour guides.

Good luck.

[Hicks]

St. Moritz with all of its ski areas and the Engadin Valley at your disposal(I dig Diavolezza); Massive terrain options, statistically good snow, Swiss precision in everything, extreme sledding(Schlittenbahnen) , easy access from Zurich, Swiss Franc exchange.

Be careful with that one.

St. Moritz mostly gets its snow on southerly flow patters - if you hit those yes it dumps a lot but but not reliably as well. Plus lodging around there is very pricey and a daily shuttle over Julier Pass can be a pain if your base is north of the resort. The upside is not many people ski off-piste there.

Overall it's not a thing to rely on too much, a base closer to Chur with the resorts mentioned around is the better option IMO.

[Toby]

Terrain, snowfall, crowds, European ambience, accessability, proximity to other resorts(daytrip), proximity to cool apres sightseeing and dining options(e.g. Alagna to Milan and back for dinner), mountain dining, strength of U.S. dollar.

An option out of left field might be Obergurgl.

Terrain - slopes are intermediate level, but outstanding lift-accessed backcountry and outstanding touring.
Snowfall - high elevation guarantees snow coverage, not so sure about amounts.
Crowds - non-existant.
European ambience - (very) small Austrian village.
Accessibility - yep. Innsbruck is (relatively) close. Innsbruck has a decent airport and major train station. It probably takes about 90min by car, dunno about public transport (I know it has a bus service, just never taken it).
Proximity to other resorts - close to Soelden (another option with a much bigger town).
Proximity to apres sightseeing - Soelden again. Innsbruck at the beginning or end is a cool Austrian town. You wouldn't want to do Innsbruck in a dinner trip, though.
Mountain dining - dunno, I ate in the Bundessportheim. There are restaurants and bars, though.
Strength of dollar - Austria typically has good value-for-money compared to countries further west.

Other Austrian options - St. Anton obviously, Soelden.

[Arty50]

Don't worry I'll take pics and video.

And I'll send a postcard.



And maybe some stinky cheese.

I hate you both so very much.

[verbier61]

sorry to join this late. Just few technical notes.
In the euro era, switzerland is no more the most expensive place on the alps. But some switzerland areas (namely st moritz) still are a lot more expensive than average.
The alagna area is under major remodeling, with a new gondola connection to the salati pass and gressoney, but no more baskets to balma
There's definitely a trend toward more snow in engelberg-st anton compared to west (from la grave to zermatt) and particularly compared to anything in the south (from monte rosa to dolomiti). But, hey, this is a trend and next winter can be just the opposite.
I might be of help in any GAS-FOOD-LODGING ( ) in the verb and in the anything-near-milan areas.

[comish]

The couple years I spent over there I dug and dug for stats and info on snowfall amounts and consistency. St. Anton, Engleberg, and Andermatt win in this regard.

Spent a week in St. Anton every year for the last 4 and have had at least thigh deep every year! The Rodelbahn there is very fun but very dangerous Search for pictures of my trip from last year.

Oburgurgl is largely flat and while snow sure because of the elevation, doesn't actually recieve that much snowfall. Yes there is good touring, but the verts a little small and there just isn't much steep around there. If you think Zermatt doesn't have anything steep then Oburgurgl definitely doesn't have anything steep.

The town of Andermatt kinda blows. People weren't particularly friendly (wife speaks German so it wasn't an American thing), expensive, food very marginal, and just not fun. Fun medium size mountain with lots of snow. don't be there on a weekend as the crowds from Zurich were a bit rough.

La Grave/Serre Che while having absolutely amazing terrain, really cool glaciated routes, awesome vert, has unreliable snow. Alagna is all that and more inreliable in the snow realm. If you hit it with good snow its fricken insane, but the probabilities when traveling that far aren't in your favor.

I would go with St. Anton or Engleberg. Literally the only thing you miss out on in St. Anton is glaciated terrain with huge vert. Engleberg has that, but probably not quite as fun a village/vibe without the Mooserwirt/Kangaroo, Tirolean vibe.

Verbier is definitely on the dry side and very expensive. good terrain though.

Champery is way too low. Went there 3 times. Once was great, once was raining, and once was green grass. We kept moving East on that final trip. Verbier was hard pack and ice, and Zermatt was soft fluffy 6inches of fresh. But altitute matters in the alps so I wouldn't fly over from the states for Portes du Soleil because you never know if it will rain.

Sounds like good fun. Damn I love the Alps. This will be the first year in the last 5 I won't get over there.

[Hicks]

An option out of left field might be Obergurgl.
Other Austrian options - St. Anton obviously, Soelden.

Regarding the village Obergurgl is close to a Marmot hole.
Seriously its small but really pricey. Everything said about terrain and snow is pretty much on the mark especially when including Sölden.
Doesn't Lori from this board who apparently competes in freeskiing events run her guiding business there?

[verbier61]

altough i like the skiing in verbier a lot, i didn't chime in because i consider the lift access to be a real pain in the ass for good bc skiing. it just takes forever to get back up after a run, since you always have to take several lifts and it just takes forever. standing more than half of the day in a lift line would drive me insane cause I'ld rather be skiing with you

No more true in verbier. Still true in la grave.

[mista]

I'm surprised so few people have mentioned the tarentaise region as there are so many resorts all so close to each other with some of the best slopes and snow to be found in France. Has this area got a bad rep in the states or something?

[WTFH]

Do it here, if you're good enough...


It's the local hill to where I work in the UK, and is going the way of the Jackson tram.
But plans are afoot to make it indoor.

[greg]

No more true in verbier. Still true in la grave.

well, that´s my personal experience. how often can you do the backside of Mont fort or face nord du mont fort in a day?

you`ll get more vert skiing better terrain in la grave by far, in my oppinion..

[mista]

WTFH - Does plastic snow go yellow if you piss on it too?

[Arno]

I'm surprised so few people have mentioned the tarentaise region as there are so many resorts all so close to each other with some of the best slopes and snow to be found in France. Has this area got a bad rep in the states or something?

I would say that La Grave or Alagna would be worth crossing the Atlantic for. Espace Killy (for example) has some great skiing and is huge by North American standards, but it isn't sufficiently different to what's on offer there to make the travel worthwhile IMO

Maybe Gordy will prove us wrong and go for Tignes after all

[greg]

places like tignes, val d´izere and la plagne might also lack a little the"authentic" alpine village image he is looking for..

those look light cities on the moon as you imagined them back in the seventies.

[WTFH]

If he wants authentic, then what about Murren?

[Lostinthetrees]

living in Geneve. My observations for the last 2 seasons...

LAST SEASON:
La Grave (and neighboring areas) had a shitty year last year. I went last week of Jan. and bit disappointed. Overall the dumpage was very spotty.

Italy, toooo warm and little snowfall.

Les Alpes Vaudoises - Excel last week of Jan., but you will have to be ready and scramble for the dumpage. G3000 was killer...but timing and local knowledge important.

Les Alpes Valaisanes (including Verbier) - dry last season. Verbier almost cancelled the Verb-Extreme event. Ran a 1/2 vert descent... (Verb is an excellent base for touring in March, though! Party town with lots of bling-bling. V61 can chime in! )

Your best bet was from the Engelberg towards east and northeast all the way into Austria. Last 2 seasons were excellent for weekly storms.

OTHER AREAS:
St Moritz is ritz $$$ and too low (as V61 said). Same for Gstaad areas.

Zermatt a damn hassle to get into village...leave transpo below village and take a train up. Also, $$$. But, it has the altitude, glaciers, touring, etc.

Argentiere could be a winner. Cham down the road. Road trip to Verb possible. 1+ hour from Geneve airport (non-rush hour!). Then again, long lines for the trams...

DATES:
Last 2 seasons Jan was too dry. Pitiful pistes and no off-piste until the last week of Jan 2005.

Avoid everything in Feb due to Euro school vacations and $$$.

March until Easter vacation is your best bet for snow, excellent coverage, and lower prices.

WEATHER:
With another record season of warm water in the Carib /Gulf of Mex that will be feeding the Gulf Stream. I would not look for a great early season in the Western Alpes. Eastern CH and Western Austria would be my bet. Again, who can tell what will happen this season based on the last 2 seasons. But, those are my odds.

Post up where you end up, maybe can hook-up in les Alpes Vaud/Valais.
If so, I can run you up for an overnight at hospice Gd-St-Bernard.

[verbier61]

well, that´s my personal experience. how often can you do the backside of Mont fort or face nord du mont fort in a day?

you`ll get more vert skiing better terrain in la grave by far, in my oppinion..

you can run the backside of mt fort enough times in a day to get very, very tired... the limit is how tired you get. Lift lines in siviez and gentianes are acceptable, and this winter there will be a new lift system from ruinettes to la chaux.
Also, a camp like that of str8line can ask to have the mont gele tram open ONLY for them. Last year it was accessible only for guided tours and camps. La Grave is awesome, but the telepherique, c'm on, is quite slow.

LITT is right. The trend in the past 3 years is definitely better snow in march (if not april...)

[jonski]

Probably gonna get told its too low, not enough snow yadda, yadda, but....

Pyrenees.

Empty, local charm, cost, etc all get big ticks. Fly in to Espana or soutern france to access quite easily. Again need transport.

Examples: Bareges - La Mongie, Ax les thermes/ Ax Bonscare

Also the area around the weather station - pic du midi or something Midi, can't remember exactly. One of the SKIEUR reading mag amy ahve more as they did an article in the last issue of last season with a bunch of stuff in it.

There is big terrain down there. Bareges is at 1800m tops out at 2500 for lift access is not too disimilar to some of the big boys up in the Alps....

EDIT: It is the Pic du Midi. Takes you up by the weather station

link to site here

[subtle plague]

There's some great input here. I knew the maggots were good for some Euro-insight. Anyone got anything to add?


Lok, I also like the idea of the Eastern Switzerland base. Somewhere near Davos, or a bit further, St. Moritz with all of its ski areas and the Engadin Valley at your disposal(I dig Diavolezza); Massive terrain options, statistically good snow, Swiss precision in everything, extreme sledding(Schlittenbahnen) , easy access from Zurich, Swiss Franc exchange.


Subtle Plague, the Titlis is tits! I love Engelberg. It's got terrain, snow, it's glaciated, easy access from Zurich, Lucerne nearby for a great swiss city with lots to see, do and eat. Also, Andermatt for a day trip.

i would not necessarily plan on st. moritz as it is in the dryest part of the alps(statistically). and the south does not receive snow that often, even in a normal year. the terrain is tits though.(i've been told)

and if you don't stay in engelberg itself, but further down the road andermatt is less than an hour away(30-45min depending on Autobahn madness skills ). For example if it dumps on the south side of the Alps and Engelberg is tracked, you can easily go there. Andermatt receives the best of both worlds sitting right on the ...damn what's the word for "Alpenhauptkamm" (main mountain part in the middle... main ridge?)

edit for the rest: i must say that cham is sorta played. everyone goes there and the town is more of an english pub than anything and the hunt for fresh is annoyingly competitive. la grave is not THAT bad.

verbier has snow issues for sure. even when the west and/or the north has been hammered, they only have ok/good freshies and they receive nothing from the south. reason nr. 2 unless they ugraded the capacity of the mont fort tram greg is right because the top section is always crowded with gapers going up for the beautiful views...... you won't get more than 3-max 4 runs down the mont fort. which is about 4000-5500k(meters) vertical.(And you HAVE to start at 8.30) in La Grave you can easily do 5-6 runs a day resulting in 7000-8500 vertical.

I can sort of confirm the atmospheric downs of andermatt. nothing to do at night and the locals are not that friendly sometimes, but it the village center itself is an authentic swiss beauty and i met some really nice locals.

[KANUTTEN]

Nothing really new to add, but my 3c:

1. La Grave for GREAT terrain. But you do need local knowledge, and there are operations there allready. I would say that maybe the town is a little too quiet.

2. Engelberg (before Andermatt). The terrain is awesome here as well, but a little bit "mellower" than the somewhat intimidating La Grave. Can be skied out a little to quickly, but in good conditions it is hard to beat "laub" 1200 vertical meters of 40 degrees powder. Early mid-march is very good for stable conditions as well.

3. St. Anton area; just a really good area overall, with lots of accessible terrain. And the town is quite alright.

Verbier is certainly a good suggestion, but it is a long time since I was there. Otherwise the smaller places might be very interesting; St Foy, Krippenstein etc.

Foodwise you will generally find very good restaurants in all decent size French and Italian resorts. Not so necessarily in Switzerland, Austria.

But the real question is; IS IT GOING TO HAPPEN THIS YEAR AND WHERE CAN I SIGN UP??!!

[subtle plague]

Nothing really new to add, but my 3c:

1. La Grave for GREAT terrain. But you do need local knowledge, and there are operations there allready. I would say that maybe the town is a little too quiet.

2. Engelberg (before Andermatt). The terrain is awesome here as well, but a little bit "mellower" than the somewhat intimidating La Grave. Can be skied out a little to quickly, but in good conditions it is hard to beat "laub" 1200 vertical meters of 40 degrees powder. Early mid-march is very good for stable conditions as well.

]

1. is correct. and that is the only downside: many organized groups already.
engelberg has none (hint hint hint )

2. skied out fast ??? well even i found fresh lines after 3 days. and i didn't have a guide. but the standard and most famous/obvious lines are skied out as fast as anywhere, that is correct. (The Laub is visible from everywhere and is one of the most amazing faces i've ever seen considering decent constant 35° vertcal so.... but even that takes up one whole morning after a dump)

btw. str8line is there a chance of minmizing costs by staying somewhere cheaper and just take the guiding and coaching or will it be one package ? (or without lift tickets if engelberg would be the place and you already have a pass.. hint hin hint )

[greg]

Also, a camp like that of str8line can ask to have the mont gele tram open ONLY for them. Last year it was accessible only for guided tours and camps. La Grave is awesome, but the telepherique, c'm on, is quite slow.

LITT is right. The trend in the past 3 years is definitely better snow in march (if not april...)

actually I was about to propose that. but that would at least for me be the only winning aspect of verbier. whenever I skied verbier, I was pissed about the three trams with three liftlines connecting siviez and mont fort. physical fitness was never the limiting factor. on the other hand I was allways happy about the long tram rides in lagrave. they offer exactly the pause you need after 2000 vertical meters, plus you can actually enjoy them sitting, eating and drinking whereas in verbier that's not possible at all. It's really easy to do over 10000 vertical meters of really interesting offpist skiing in la grave in a day. if you get 6000 at verbier, you're already a lucky person.

I really like verbier, 61, but not for guided skiing. there's not much terrain I'ld consider a guide appropriate for (accept for exclusive mont gele rides) and if the taxometer is running I hate standing in liftlines.

but seriously, st8line. if you had the connections to rent mont gelé for a week, go for it. that would be killer..