Heritage Lab Swallowtails (R, FR, & BC)

[Marshal Olson]

As a longtime fanboi of DPS 120 200cm I’m intrigued by this ski.
Cool thread. Thx OP.

Curious what Marshall has to say about how the full reverse changes this iconic shape.

Not so concerned about the swallow. It may have some effect in pow. But blindfolded could you feel it? Meh.
My question is more about rocker profiles.

Fascinating topic, indeed. I spent 3x 100+ day seasons exclusively skiing the 190cm OG pintails, and (obviously) absolutely loved them, overall, but also had a few things I always wanted to address.

(1) They have an extreme mount position (-15cm, same as the Sanouk), extreme sidecut offset (ski's waist was ~15cm behind the recommended), and extreme tip-to-tail delta (15mm). Generally, only the Salomon BBR, Lhasa Pow, and some wonky euro touring skis spring to mind as "relatively modern" skis combine that rearward of a mount, more delta, and sidecut offset.

(2) They had an extreme flex pattern with a quite soft tip to give lift in soft snow and a stiff tail (to account how short the tail was w/ the set-back mount). This made them good for skiing down the fall line in untracked snow but like the Sanouk, limited elsewhere.

In particular, I always felt like they were cumbersome in the woods, as fresh snow got sun, any sort of wind effect, tail would knife on airs, and they could ride too deep in the tail in really deep low density snow. I really prefered how my OG skis felt at +2.5 to +3 in untracked snow, but that was way too far forward on the ski's short shovel in any kind of tracked/variable/wind effect.

I would say, despite not making sense at all on first glance, the HB122 ski is for sure the MOST similar to the OG pintails on soft snow days overall. It has that "trampoline on your feet, surfy like crazy, unsinkable tip" feeling that is indescribable unless you know already, and the mega tail rocker actually makes it behave a lot like a setback pintail. The specs on paper are wildly different, but the experience on snow is remarkably similar. The HB122 is 2400g, is quite smooth and supportive, and is actually super fun overall. Like it shreds. Wild for me as a mega meathead stout ski fan to say.

Anyhow, back on topic...So what am I doing here? I wouldn't consider the Swallowtails to be a direct lineage of the OPG pintails per-se, but more a spiritual descendant. The I know you don't care about the Swallowtail, but the biggest thing I think you would notice, coming off the skis you are, is that the ski will bring the slashy easily released tail of a setback pintail (due to the cutout's reduciton of torsional rigidity) to a much more balanced ski shape that rides more neutrally in untracked snow, and is legitimately fun as the mountain tracks out.

With the Swallowtails, the mount point, rocker profile, flex pattern, etc make for a ski that is comparably surfy in deep snow, but WAY WAY WAY more fun everywhere else. The R rocker profile would be the most analogous, just without the flappy tip, with much better pivot at lower speeds, and a billion times more fun as a "soft snow ski" instead of just being amn "untracked snow ski".

My .02! If I glossed over anything you want to expand on, just LMK! Happy to unpack in more detail.

[rabbit]

tip-to-tail delta (15mm)

deep thought no.1:
I am, apparently, out of touch with ski-design.
If I hear delta, I'm thinking bindings. Would you care to explain?

deep thought no.2:
We should all buy less skis.
The ones we do buy, we should buy from Marshal.

#peacelovesnow

[Marshal Olson]

deep thought no.1:
I am, apparently, out of touch with ski-design.
If I hear delta, I'm thinking bindings. Would you care to explain?

deep thought no.2:
We should all buy less skis.
The ones we do buy, we should buy from Marshal.

#peacelovesnow

Hi fives brother!

Tip-To-Tail delta is the difference between the widepoint of the tip and tail. so a 140-110-130 ski has a 10mm delta, for example. Generally "progressive" skis are 5-8mm delta. Traditional skis are around 10mm delta, and pintails are 12+mm of delta

Sounds like you could use a "Life is too short to waste great snow on good skis" T-shirt

[rabbit]

Hi fives brother!

Tip-To-Tail delta is the difference between the widepoint of the tip and tail.
...
Sounds like you could use a "Life is too short to waste great snow on good skis" T-shirt

Thanx for the teaching. Never heard the term used like that before.
And I still owe you for fixing me up with cheap lotus138s 15years ago who are still going strong btw.

When you make ehp186-clones in a lightweight carbon layup I will buy two pairs and then Im set for life.

[mr_pretzel]

Thanx for the teaching. Never heard the term used like that before.
And I still owe you for fixing me up with cheap lotus138s 15years ago who are still going strong btw.

When you make ehp186-clones in a lightweight carbon layup I will buy two pairs and then Im set for life.

The C113 is so close to that, dont wait

[L8APX]

Skied my 187 ST120 FR in resort chop end of day snow today and am telling you hit go now on the preorder and support MO and HL. Your fall 2024 self will thank you.
https://www.heritagelabskis.com/

[mr_pretzel]

Marshal, do you have any thoughts on the the 193 length?

My BC120s are awesome by the way. They rail hardpack too and don’t feel wide at all. Everyone who tours needs one.

[Marshal Olson]

welp.... only Sylvan has been a mad man enough to order the R-flavor 193 120 ST so far w/ lots of people going for the FR version.

The FR version of the 193 120 ST makes more sense to my brain, as if its soft enough to justify that big of a ski, the FR tail will be plenty supportive, the FR 120mm will cross over into Hot Pow a little better, and if I am skiing broken chop fast enough to want a 193 R profile, i'd probably want to be on the FL113/R110/R105. Noting this is conjecture, as the 193s don't exist yet.

I think the 187 R makes a ton of sense as absolute foot-missiles however since they will be more manuverable and still charge like a boss.

Thinking out loud here, not right or wrong. Just my .02!!!

[K1mJ0ngTr1ll]

R120 in the 187 is not hard to ski at all. Idk what Marshall did but the forgiveness to chargeable ratio is nuckin futs. I’m 6’1 220 and I haven’t yet thought I need more ski.

[soul_skier]

I really want the r120s, but already having the fl113s even I can't justify the overlap.

[K1mJ0ngTr1ll]

Anyone measured their 187 R120 STs, and care to share? Sleuthing through the Lotii thread tells me actual weight of K1m's pair is 2450g/ski (thanks dude).

[emoji41] For science ^

I haven’t pulled mine but they are slightly longer than my CT110 so I would assume they are right around that 187 mark.



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[Upinsmoke]

Like the others here, I’m 6’ 1”, 200lbs and I don’t see a need for the 193r120(maybe Alaska helicopter skiing)
the 187 is a perplexing combination of super charger chop destroyer and yet also easy to ski slower/make smaller turns. Mine weigh in @ 2500g a ski! Not light by any means. One thing I do notice is it is easier to ski then my fr132 in the resort. The 132 is better float in pure pow but is much harder to ski as the day goes on(I have a knee with 5x surgeries) and I always switch the 132 out by lunch. Now I’m not even sure when I’ll ski the 132s. Rain crust/funky wind effect probably gets the 132 nod.

[Upinsmoke]

I really want the r120s, but already having the fl113s even I can't justify the overlap.

sure you can! Sell the 113s! You be happy you did

[Marshal Olson]

sure you can! Sell the 113s! You be happy you did

I love it… but SS … don’t sell the FL113, haha. No better bluebird palisade/alpine ski!

[Upinsmoke]

Haha! It’s hard to pick just a couple of the skis in the HL lineup…best to own them all

[SWskier]

Upinsmoke - where are you located? I’d love to check these out. I’m in Durango.


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[hoarhey]

180 and 193 lengths cancelled?


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[N1CK.]

so what is the real impact of the swallowtail on the way a ski feels? I've never skied anything with that type of tail.

cheers.

nvmd: I re-read Marshal's post above.
"but the biggest thing I think you would notice, coming off the skis you are, is that the ski will bring the slashy easily released tail of a setback pintail (due to the cutout's reduciton of torsional rigidity) to a much more balanced ski shape that rides more neutrally in untracked snow, and is legitimately fun as the mountain tracks out."

[The Iron Horse]

180 and 193 lengths cancelled?

What???

If true for the 180, it makes sense given what Marshal said about shorter sizes. I would expect enough sales of the 193, though, no?

[Marshal Olson]

180 and 193 lengths cancelled?

Zero orders for 180 FR and 193 Rs, so I turned em off. If you really want a pair, I will swing it for you.
All the other Swallowtail iterations are a go!

[mntlion]

Zero orders for 180 FR and 193 Rs, so I turned em off. If you really want a pair, I will swing it for you.
All the other Swallowtail iterations are a go!

I sent you a PM re sanooks etc

[Marshal Olson]

Dang it! Read it and lost track of it!! Will reply now. Thanks for the ping

[L8APX]

These are really good skis.

[hoarhey]

Order in for 180 FR120ST, woot!


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[lrn2swim]

Man oh man these look so sweet. Someone convince me why I should get a pair of the 193 FRs when I already have 190 Catamarans