BLM closes 1/3 of Moab OHV trails to OHVs and e-bikes

[XXX-er]

a low bar perhaps but better or worse than a lot of America ?

[evdog]

Seems like Banff/ Jasper NP allow bikes on some trails. Only a handful of Natl Parks in the US do. Arizona Trail in Saguaro NP and in Grand Canyon NP but only above the rim. Maybe a few other spots.

Just be grateful there isn't Wilderness in Canada. Environuts actively use that to ban bikes in the US under the siren song of "we have to protect it". From what?

[EWG]

What a wonderful supportive thread. Lot of love in this room.

I've been in a wait and see mode on ebikes in the mountains/backcountry. I think I finally have an opinion. I think I'm now anti-everything that makes is easier for people to access the backcountry. Just like shaped skis made skiing (especially powder) easier for the masses and now ski areas have triple the traffic, ebikes are making it a lot easier for people to get into areas that previously had a very high bar of entry. I just did White Rim, which is not a hard trail, but used to at least require riding 100 miles with some steep uphills in a couple places. Now it's open to ebikes, and it's tripling the number of people that want to do it.

You no longer have to earn your turns. And yes, I love chairlift skiing and wouldn't want to go back to wooden skis and uphill slogs for 20 shitty turns, but at least the mountains were free then. And empty.

At some point it's too easy to get backcountry and it doesn't require any sacrifice, and so those that aren't willing to work can still get off the couch and play there. Superlight backpacking gear, shift bindings, shaped skis, ebikes, bolted climbing routes, iphones with emergency sat phones - they're all great, but they are all one step closer to the tragedy of the commons.

At some point we have to admit that easier does not equal better. More comfortable is not my only goal. Technology can make our life easier, but is that an improvement?

I just rode up Shafer Road at the end of 100 miles. 1,500 feet straight up. When I was younger I raced up it. This time I just survived it. I was miserable turning the biggest gear I could up the fucking thing. And the feeling at the top - and still now - was better than any other time I've done it.

I have a friend with a defective back and a non working leg and an ebike lets him get backcountry. I'm all for that, and for him. But at some point, each individual getting access ruins it for everyone. I'm not in shape enough to climb everest, but I don't believe someone should invent leg braces that do 20% of the work for me and keep me warm so that I can have my turn.

I guess ebikes are coming. The mountains are filling up. At some point we will lose what we love. And it just happened in Moab when SxSs made it easy for everyone. Great for individual access, bad for the collective. Go ahead and flame, and I know that someday I will want an ebike to get into areas I currently access my own power, but I hope it's illegal for me to do it. Because I want my kids to have a chance to experience the mountains like I did, rather than as a mall.

[climberevan]

Perfectly stated, EWG.

[Meadow Skipper]

Nice, EWG.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

That’s where I’m at EWG. Rode 30 miles and 5000’ of climbing yesterday and at 55 it was way harder than at 40 but totally worth it to do with no assist.


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[grinch]

^^nice flex
"Where are your papers!!" "I must see your papers!!" "show me your doctors note!!" Flips badge out "spread'm!!"

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[SKIP IN7RO]

That’s where I’m at EWG. Rode 30 miles and 5000’ of climbing yesterday and at 55 it was way harder than at 40 but totally worth it to do with no assist.


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Are you gonna ride today?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

^^nice flex
"Where are your papers!!" "I must see your papers!!" "show me your doctors note!!" Flips badge out "spread'm!!"

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Not flexing, it was brutal for me but still rewarding to do. There’s value in adversity.

The rest is just nonsense rambling and adds nothing but reinforcement of your idiocy. Carry on.


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[grinch]

I can see how itd be hard for you to admit that....
Looks like the tough guy crew has entered the chat.
EWG just being supportive as long as youre part of his "he man posse". Speedos arent optional!!!

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[MagnificentUnicorn]

I can see how itd be hard for you to admit that....
Looks like the tough guy crew has entered the chat.
EWG just being supportive as long as youre part of his "he man posse". Speedos arent optional!!!

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You’re making a fool of yourself, you can get counseling for your spiraling insecurities.


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[alias_rice]

Some A+ humble bragging this morning.

[grinch]

Its soo cute when they gather around and pat each others bum in support. Dreamy!

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[toast2266]

That’s where I’m at EWG. Rode 30 miles and 5000’ of climbing yesterday and at 55 it was way harder than at 40 but totally worth it to do with no assist.


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Fully agreed that that kind of ride is far more satisfying on the regular bike.

But I do like the ebike for the day after, when I'm feeling pretty worked and want to do something easy. Take the moped out for a low effort spin.

[grinch]

Nope, like ski touring its far more satisfying when you manage the effort and save some gas to rip the downs. Dampens the experience when youre blown and miss tge good lines or tumble on the way out.
Then the next day you jump on the eeb again and go do another. Life is good. Ez to train hard , hard to train ez. Have to use the noggin a bit. Strategize the fun in fitness

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[summit]

I'm now anti-everything that makes is easier for people to access the backcountry. Just like shaped skis ... White Rim ... open to ebikes, and it's tripling the number of people that want to do it.

EWG "backcountry for me, not for thee"

For fucks sake, White Rim?

You are so full of shit.

1. White Rim was not hard.
2. It is mostly riding on a jeep road.
3. You were always allowed to do with SUV support. Bikes aren't even required!!!!
4. Anyone struggling just puts their bike on the pickup truck for the climb out.
5. It is regulated by permits so no overcrowding.

And you are worried about ebikes????????????????

Are you for fucking real?

Surely you are trollin. I'm supposed to take anything else you have to say about what a tragedy it is that people are getting out into the BC seriously?

I'll take you seriously as soon as you go back to leather bindings and boots on 1950s straight wood skis with seal skin skins and give up modern enablers of backcountry access like releasable bindings, plastics, dropper posts, suspension forks, and modern drivetrains.

Until then, you are no different than any other nobody-in-MY-outdoors-except-my-fellow misanthropic/luddite user group elitists. Go hang out with the equestrians and the Sierra Club.

[EWG]

EWG "backcountry for me, not for thee"

For fucks sake, White Rim?

You are so full of shit.

1. White Rim was not hard.
2. It is mostly riding on a jeep road.
3. You were always allowed to do with SUV support.
4. Anyone struggling just puts their bike on the pickup truck for the climb out.
5. It is regulated by permits so no overcrowding.

And you are worried about ebikes????????????????

Are you for fucking real?

Yes I am. I've done that trip many times. Ebikes were made legal 2 years ago. This year I saw tours of people that were on ebikes with outfitters - people who never would have done it without motor assistance, group types I've never seen there before. There are a limited number of campsites and a limited numbers of days, and doubling the people that want to do it will make it that much more difficult to get there.

I don't see how ebikes in the backcountry are different from inventing mechanically assisted rock climbing, battery powered power surfboards (they exist now), powered ascent boosters for backcountry skis etc. How is an ebike different from letting people who can't walk 10 miles into the backcountry to camp use a segway?

I have always promoted backcountry access for all. I still believe that. But removing all barriers to getting there will overun it and ruin it.

And just so it's clear to everyone, I don't have any issue with ebikes in any other way. I own one for my kids. They are awesome, clean machines that can revolutionize much of our urban life. They are awesome to get people outside, and terrific for people that are older or hurt in some way. I'm fine with them on close in trails, city trails, bike paths. It's great that they make biking easier, I agree that you can get a workout on them, and I think they are fantastic for fitness. And they are super fun. I'm pro ebike. I'm also pro shaped skis. And pro high quiality winter gear that make it more comfortable in shitty weather.

But I THINK I've decided that anything that makes it even easier to fill up the backcountry is step in the wrong direction. We are reaching a saturation point. Feel free to convince me otherwise. But try to get a permit to white rim, or to angel's landing, or to Indian Peaks backcountry, or get up LCC/BCC, or I70 M-F. It's not about the individual, the machine or the tech - it's about the common good. Don't freak out on me, I'm not coming for your ebike. I'm worried about our public lands.

And yes, maybe we've come too far with our tech.

The Tragedy of the Commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

[summit]

EWG "Oh no! People are in the backcountry on a SUV supported bike camping trip who don't DESERVE to be there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only I deserve to be there with my SUV supported bike camping trip!"

You are an elitist asshole. You are not going to win any points for mountain bikes that way.

You can make an argument against outfitters getting the permits, sure. But SUVs are OK, ebikes aren't?

Is this a pic of you on your purist bike?

[EWG]

EWG "Oh no! People are in the backcountry on a SUV supported bike camping trip who don't DESERVE to be there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only I deserve to be there with my SUV supported bike camping trip!"

You are an elitist asshole. You are not going to win any points for mountain bikes that way.

You can make an argument against outfitters getting the permits, sure. But SUVs are OK, ebikes aren't?

Is this a pic of you on your purist bike?

Sorry Summit. I put a lot of thought into my post, didn't say any of that, and if you are characterizing it that way then you are deliberately misreading it. If you'd like to have a real conversation, I'm here for it.

[grinch]

Try and get a backcountry hut for ski touring these days. 2 yrs out maybe. Maybe we should ban huts and tech bindings. Saturation point eh
Or a top down approach. Start with semis, autos, then dirtbikes and go from there. Who's in?

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[SKIP IN7RO]

Saturation point was reached shortly after Trista picked Ryan.

[zion zig zag]

Try and get a backcountry hut for ski touring these days. 2 yrs out maybe. Maybe we should ban huts and tech bindings. Saturation point eh


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Exactly. Now add skis that only take 20% of the effort because they have electric assist and see how many people that adds to the equation.

Anyway, I had a funny experience this morning. I’m riding downhill, fully in control, but come around a corner to a guy closing on me quickly. I get on the brakes hard and have several feet between us by the time I am stopped. The guy proceeds to start to lecture me. I look down and tell him that e-bikes aren’t legal on this trail, he rides off in a huff. If that had been any legal encounter, the closing speed wouldn’t have been problematic at all and the margins would’ve been larger.

[summit]

1. ebikes should yield even when they are allowed (and ebikes make it easy to yield)
2. the guy didn't know the rules of the trail in any respect

Sounds like a rider problem, not an ebike problem.

As far as speed, I'm climbing uphill single track at single digit speeds, usually around 5mph tops, on my emtb, so my uphill speed ain't the problem for encounters. DH riders should make noise when there are short site lines on bidirectional trails. But 90% my emtb uphill is on fire roads. There are four nearby trail nets that are emtb, but only two of them are sensibly climbed on single track. And of course, unsanctioned trails, but those don't exist anyway.

[grinch]

Exactly. Now add skis that only take 20% of the effort because they have electric assist and see how many people that adds to the equation.

Anyway, I had a funny experience this morning. I’m riding downhill, fully in control, but come around a corner to a guy closing on me quickly. I get on the brakes hard and have several feet between us by the time I am stopped. The guy proceeds to start to lecture me. I look down and tell him that e-bikes aren’t legal on this trail, he rides off in a huff. If that had been any legal encounter, the closing speed wouldn’t have been problematic at all and the margins would’ve been larger.

Karen should pick his battles more effectively.
I guess we all have saturation points i could live without a vehicle or a 4000 sq/ft house. I think i prioritize bikes and skis but thats me. As long as im not endangering someone or screwing up thier trail work. I think i generally contribute and im even willing to do a little extra until someone gets their mileage in to the point where they want to build on things. I think it still works that way.
Take away the E and the backcountry is still getting more popular. BITD you couldnt get people out, ski touring or mtb. The secret is out. People like it. Can you blame them. Deal with it. There are far better things to be concerned with

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[toast2266]

Sounds like a rider problem, not an ebike problem.

That's exactly the point. Ebikes are never the problem. Side by sides are never the problem either. But the people are, and those vehicles are more conducive to enabling problems than other vehicles that have a higher barrier to entry.