BLM closes 1/3 of Moab OHV trails to OHVs and e-bikes

[summit]

The second half of this reads like you cut and paste from a pro e-bike statement that IMBA wants you to send your Congressman.

I'm going to take that as a big compliment on my writing from the heart during a bout of insomnia that I get from my shoulder injuries (bike park).

I have seen quite a few people on e-bikes who needed help

FWIW I've seen many tourists at hospital who haven't ridden a bike in a long time and are hurt after doing a Vail Pass shuttle ride on an road bike.

More folks are coming in from bike park wrecks though... multiple a day.

Now we are starting to see tourists who are crashing cruiser/path ebikes on roads and bike paths, several a week in peak summer.

But let's talk about BC, which means SAR.

What used to be low number was mtbers wrecking on single track. I've been on plenty of SAR missions for these lately, almost as many as OHV wrecks (ATV crashes, rolled 4x4s, motos). The OHVs are the worst wrecks in terms of injury and death. But they also call frequently for "I'm stuck and need a ride" while mtbs don't.

I haven't yet to see a SAR call in my area for an emtb, injury, lost, broken down or otherwise. I'm sure I will, but it hasn't happened yet.

[BFD]

Moab is a special kind of fucked up. Does anyone really care other than the people trying to make money off the place?

[Foggy_Goggles]

Thinks are generally as easy or hard as you make them. Riding the same trail on a moped will require less physical effort but if you ride it 7 times maybe its a wash?

The problem with slicing and dicing the user groups in that one day they may be coming for you! E bikes? What about One Wheels, E strollers....or wait for it...E SxSs. You really gotta go deep on what actually is your area not simply I should be able to do what I want to do but you shouldn't be able to do what you want to do.

Some people just hate motorized recreation. Its OK, but own it. Some motorized recreationalist hate SxSs. There really is room for everyone. But the Super Karens think their cause is so noble that they'll burn everything down in the process.

There are plenty of OHV play areas like Whitewash, they just aren't 5mins from the AirBnB and the bar. There are also other towns the cater to OHV (SxS mostly) tourism where you absolutely can go full retard.

So yeah, the Federales threw the baby out with the bathwater but its not like you don't have options. Anyone fortunate to go a vacation to Moab to dirtbike, e mtb, hike, Jeep, ATV SxS, shoot ARs or whatever the fuck can absolutely continue to do that.

Its great to be engaged and maybe even...gasp...work towards a solution but ne need to make it what it isn't.

[summit]

I’m a little surprised at the folks saying that riding an emtb is just as hard or harder than riding a mtb. Yet at the same time saying that emtbs allow them to ride farther, get more vert, ride faster and ride technical sections of trail that they couldn’t on an mtb.

Let me see if I can clarify that because this isn't "cognitive dissonance," it is however different.

Emtb are harder to handle (not pedal) in tech and harder to handle on the downhill.

Unskilled riders are not going to suddenly ride tech uphills they could not on an analog, much less clear downhill tech.

Skilled riders can clear steep technical uphills easier on an emtb IF and ONLY IF the difficulty with the section was running out of momentum.

Emtbs help get more vert which makes you work harder because you are working more climb and descent body work and you are still pedaling those ups, you just get more up in the same amount of time.

On the downhill, emtb is not usually an advantage, it might help with a large punch climb in the dh while mostly requiring more effort/energy to handle. When you look at enduro mtb races with emtb categories, their downhill segments are slower.

A lot of this also sounds like when people who rode 1 or 2 blue bike park laps say bike park is not a workout. People who say that need to ride 16K of Keystone or 18K of Whistler tech or 29K of Angelfire in a day. It is a full body exhaustion.

Unlike bikepark, emtb I'm still sustained pedalling the whole climb (vs sprinting in the park).

I can emtb 4K in the same time I would analog 2K of the same. It is more work on the emtb, but more descending

[Foggy_Goggles]

Yeah, but who cares? Dirt bikes are even harder....and they got electric ones now! MX riders are in insane shape. You should take a pro level MTB, E MTB, ICE dirtbike and E dirtbike riders to the track, ride for an hour and see who is more tired.

I could tell you I'm way more worked after a full on day of snowmobiling than I after tour or ride lifts. But so what? I doesn't mean I should be able to roost the fuck outta the XC ski trail.

[toast2266]

I continue to be completely baffled by people who say they work as hard on an ebike as they do on a regular bike. I've spent plenty of time on both. If you're working as hard on an ebike as you do on a regular bike, you and I are doing something very differently.

Ebikes are for when I need a rest day but still want to ride.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Let me see if I can clarify that because this isn't "cognitive dissonance."

Emtb are harder to handle in tech and harder to handle on the downhill.

Unskilled riders are not going to suddenly ride up tech they could not before much less down.

Skilled riders can clear steep technical uphills easier on an emtb IF and ONLY IF the difficulty with the section was running out of momentum.

Emtbs give you more vert which makes you work harder because you are working more climb and descent body work and you are still pedaling those ups, you just get more up in the same amount of time.

A lot of this also sounds like when people who rode 1 or 2 blue bike park laps say bike park is not a workout. People who say that need to ride 14K of Keystone or 18K of Whistler tech or 28K of Angelfire.

I can emtb 4K in the same time I would analog 2K of the same. It is more work on the emtb.

Talking with people that I know, personal experience and observation is at odds with what you’re saying. Everyone that I know that uses an ebike for mtb say the reason they do it is because it’s easier. The fat ass riding his ebike up the trail to access the real downhill trails isn’t using an ebike because it’s more challenging climbing and descending.

You’re own anecdote proves this, you state that you can ride twice as much vertical in the same amount of time on an ebike. I’d agree that twice as much vert requires more work, work that’s being done by an electric motor. This IS cognitive dissonance. Your emotional investment and ego won’t allow you to admit this.


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

I continue to be completely baffled by people who say they work as hard on an ebike as they do on a regular bike. I've spent plenty of time on both. If you're working as hard on an ebike as you do on a regular bike, you and I are doing something very differently.

Ebikes are for when I need a rest day but still want to ride.

Summit is the arbiter of all things true, he tells us all the time


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[Foggy_Goggles]

Yeah, but it is a stupid argument. Hikers don't get to ban bikers and bikers don't get to say the they work hard because they can go further. e.g. rigid, single speed, fixie, penny farthing.

[summit]

Summit is the arbiter of all things true, he tells us all the time

Oh sure, I am a black kettle, dr. pot.

you state that you can ride twice as much vertical in the same amount of time on an ebike. I’d agree that twice as much vert requires more work, work that’s being done by an electric motor. This IS cognitive dissonance.

We are talking past each other. Of course the motor is doing work.

The amount of work I do when I double the vert with an emtb is NOT double the work I would do to analog twice the vert. That would be a ludicrous claim and it is not what I'm saying!

The amount of work I put into 2x the vert on an ebike is more work, by me, than the amount of work I would put into what I could do on an analog in the same amount of time, same trails.

Why?

I am still pedalling almost as hard, albeit for a little shorter period, but I am bike handling twice the ascent and descent on a slightly heavier bike. Does that clarify?

[summit]

I'll wager there are ways to be lazy on an ebike. I bet your friends who "ride ebikes to rest" have "full power" bikes at the top end of the Class 1 range with big batteries and use the setting that gives ~600W of assist for ~100W of rider input. I've ridden such bikes on a bike path before. Zoooooom without a ton of effort. (But it all depends on the selected mode how much is you vs the bike).

Maybe that is the disconnect in experience here.

My bike is ~10 lbs lighter and usually giving a fraction of that power and at 1:1 output ratio. Otherwise my battery would die most ricky tick and I wouldn't be doing 2x my analog rides. The bikes I've ridden on trail and the one I own are all "SL" bikes (Levo SL, Kenevo SL, Relay). But I specifically chose that because I wanted a lighter ebike that handled close to current mtb handling than to a 2000s DH bike NTTAWWT.

[grinch]

I generally spin where i can with the emtb so my hr will be lower and avoid going into an interval on punchy climbs but then my hr is a bit higher on the downs then regular mtb. So overall those days my average hr will be lower in the same amount of time. Then add in the fact that ill ride longer on those days, and ride more days and then have days where i pull my self inside out just going out having fun on "climbing problems" (almost like rock climbing problems or trials mtb climbing), then i may add in more days of trail work. Weeks end ill have burned far more calories.
Downhill speed is very close. So close that its hard to say and will vary with tracks and conditiins. Changing it up my 38lb enduro bike feels sketchy and unstable at speed or nervous on loose ground but agile at slowrr speeds and more playful jumping. Changing back the 55lb emtb feels sluggish at slower speeds and more unwieldy on steeps but stable in the air , loose ground and speed. My times are very close on downs but more upper body is used on the emtb so hr is a touch higher on emtb
Emtb class 1 bikes are not classified as motorized you can ride non motorized trail unless the trail has been labeled as "no emtb". Soon enough therell be no one on those "no emtb" trails because most people will be on emtb

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[MagnificentUnicorn]

Oh sure, I am a black kettle, dr. pot.



We are talking past each other. Of course the motor is doing work.

The amount of work I do when I double the vert with an emtb is NOT double the work I would do to analog twice the vert. That would be a ludicrous claim and it is not what I'm saying!

The amount of work I put into 2x the vert on an ebike is more work, by me, than the amount of work I would put into what I could do on an analog in the same amount of time, same trails.

Why?

I am still pedalling almost as hard, albeit for a little shorter period, but I am bike handling twice the ascent and descent on a slightly heavier bike. Does that clarify?

So it’s easier?


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[Mudfoot]

Moab is a special kind of fucked up. Does anyone really care other than the people trying to make money off the place?

Originally there were lots of jeep trails, old desert roads and slick rock for the rock crawlers and motorcycles, which the mountain bikers began to share with no real issues. The key was that none of those vehicles did well in extended stretches of deep sand. The simple problem now is that with the invention of OHVs and other motorized fat tire vehicles, including some e-bikes, people can go fucking anywhere and they do. This has created unlimited chaos for the environment and the users.

Moab main street is a complete stream of OHV rental shops. Tourists and most other OHV users undoubtedly look at the entire landscape as an unlimited fun park. I mean, "Hey, it's public land, right."

The new restrictions are well intended but the off road genie is out of the bottle and in the long run $$ will keep anyone from putting it back in. Unfortunately, the future of Moab is mostly motorheads. The good news is that the canyon country of southern Utah is huge and it does not take much work to find other places to ride that will suit your desires.

[muted reborn]

It doesn't seem to me that this really changes anything for ebikes. As best I can tell, most of the stuff that was closed was rogue trails through the desert, which I'm guessing were sandy unrideable slogs, even on an ebike.

The stuff up top, yes - they are closing them so they get reclaimed by the desert, why would they keep it open it to any users?

I can't understand how this is an ebike conversation now - this is about a closure popular to off-roaders in an area very rarely biked. Only singletrack out there that I see that MTBers rode was Dead Cow - first time I've heard of the trail was yesterday.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I generally spin where i can with the emtb so my hr will be lower and avoid going into an interval on punchy climbs but then my hr is a bit higher on the downs then regular mtb. So overall those days my average hr will be lower in the same amount of time. Then add in the fact that ill ride longer on those days, and ride more days and then have days where i pull my self inside out just going out having fun on "climbing problems" (almost like rock climbing problems or trials mtb climbing), then i may add in more days of trail work. Weeks end ill have burned far more calories.
Downhill speed is very close. So close that its hard to say and will vary with tracks and conditiins. Changing it up my 38lb enduro bike feels sketchy and unstable at speed or nervous on loose ground but agile at slowrr speeds and more playful jumping. Changing back the 55lb emtb feels sluggish at slower speeds and more unwieldy on steeps but stable in the air , loose ground and speed. My times are very close on downs but more upper body is used on the emtb so hr is a touch higher on emtb
Emtb class 1 bikes are not classified as motorized you can ride non motorized trail unless the trail has been labeled as "no emtb". Soon enough therell be no one on those "no emtb" trails because most people will be on emtb

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So it’s easier. While class 1 bikes may not be considered “motorized” in Canada, in the US they’re considered motorized by the FS and BLM. If most people were on ebikes and they avoid the non motorized trails down here, that would be great, less traffic. Unfortunately almost all emtb users ignore the “no motorized use of any kind” signs.


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

The stuff up top, yes - they are closing them so they get reclaimed by the desert, why would they keep it open it to any users?

I can't understand how this is an ebike conversation now - this is about a closure popular to off-roaders in an area very rarely biked. Only singletrack out there that I see that MTBers rode was Dead Cow - first time I've heard of the trail was yesterday.

It’s an ebike conversation because people whined about the ebike closures. Basically they closed some trails to motorized traffic and the BLM considers ebikes motorized.


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[skaredshtles]

This thread has everything?

Can I like E Bikes but think they should be limited to motorized trails?

Is it OK to think that while human behavior is the main issue, new SxS enable shitbaggery unlike before?

Is it to complex to simultaneously dislike both the Federal Government's public lands management and the abuse that made it necessary?

The Town of Moab has become basically Daytona Beach of Utah. There is a certain user that comes to town, gets an AirBnB and motel and spends up to $750/day on a SxS and just treats in like an amusement park or video game.

Because many of the SxS are street legal in Moab, they just ride from town to these banned trails. Some users may be lost but what will happen is they will just trailer to different trails. You've already seen this with the camping bans around the river and Castle Valley. The zones outside the closure are starting to get trashed.

Moab is great but people act like its the only place in the desert. It will be interesting to see what happens.

It's like an homage to nuance!

[alias_rice]

I will say for me, when I ride my e-bike my heart rate does stay lower typically than it does on my analog bike. I very rarely get into zone 5 on an e-bike, but I also ride much longer and more often on the e-bike, so for me it’s a better workout.

Also please quit saying people are roosting on a moped. No one is fucking roosting around on an ebike, and it just makes you sound stupid when you say they are.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Moab is a special kind of fucked up. Does anyone really care other than the people trying to make money off the place?

Yes and no. It is a blessing and it is a curse. The natural beauty, infrastructure and trail network is pretty unique. I stayed away for for a long time but recently started strategically going back. I don't go close to town and camp far away and just make day trips to Fishers, Castle Valley etc. But yes, there is almost unlimited amount of desert where you can do whatever the fuck you want away from crowds.

[Canada1]

This has zero effect on me or my frequent Moab trips. I’d guess the only people riding sandy double tracks to nowhere were motor’s. I’d guess this has damn near zero impact on e bikes too. The only people on these illegal / illogical single tracks were side by sides and motto’s. Just guessing that e bikes still have access to the things they want to ride

[Foggy_Goggles]

Can we at least agree that the common enemy is the terms "Analog" or "Acoustic" bikes? Just stop. Its like you came on yourself every time you use it.

[grinch]

So it’s easier. While class 1 bikes may not be considered “motorized” in Canada, in the US they’re considered motorized by the FS and BLM. If most people were on ebikes and they avoid the non motorized trails down here, that would be great, less traffic. Unfortunately almost all emtb users ignore the “no motorized use of any kind” signs.


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Its not this hard to understand. Its easier from point A to point B. Its virtually the same, or very close, if time travelled is the same, or 1hr colories burned is 1hr calories burned. The difference is i can cruise up a boring feature lacking uphill on an emtb where id be just slogging a boring uphill on a mtb. Thus saving my energy for max hr effort on fun supertech climbs trying to unlock a line , loving it and itd be imposivlble on a mtb. Although i have unlocked lines on my emtb that helped me go back on my mtb and repeat
Ya you guys have many more political layers. I also think that emtb/mtb are so close theyll just become one and the same much like it has developed in every other country with sizeable mtb participation. We already see that trend in sales.

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[MagnificentUnicorn]

I will say for me, when I ride my e-bike my heart rate does stay lower typically than it does on my analog bike. I very rarely get into zone 5 on an e-bike, but I also ride much longer and more often on the e-bike, so for me it’s a better workout.

Also please quit saying people are roosting on a moped. No one is fucking roosting around on an ebike, and it just makes you sound stupid when you say they are.

I’m pretty sure emtbs don’t roost in the way we talk about dirt bikes. What I don’t see on the single track that I usually ride is speed that doesn’t allow for clean turns on tight corners and switchbacks, even uphill. I’m talking trails no wider than 18”. Sliding and skidding around turns because of too much speed. Of course this has been a problem for a while now but more inexperienced users are getting on trails and they don’t have the background to know that skidding and sliding through turns isn’t okay. Maybe I’m old school and people think skidding and sliding through turns and switchbacks is okay.


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[summit]

Can we at least agree that the common enemy is the terms "Analog" or "Acoustic" bikes? Just stop. Its like you came on yourself every time you use it.

Didn't realize that bothered folks. Thought it was common parlance.

My ride group does have tongue in cheek nicknames for our bike types. "Skinny" for trail bike, "squishy" for enduro, "fatty" for fatbike, and "zippy" for emtb.

I'll stop calling normal mtbs "analog" if others stop calling emtbs "mopeds"