A goodbye to my Daughters MOM - RIP Michelle

[Aldo]

My deepest condolences to you and your daughters Fred. You’ll all be in my thoughts and prayers.

[cat in january]

Suicide is very tough on the survivors. Be well. We all have hardships, it unites us as humans in an odd way. Wishing you and your daughters light

[frozenwater]

Allow me once again to throw random thoughts into the darkness. I also wanted to share the announcement for those who new her here. Those who really new here got it and attended. I did not attend, though in hindsight I wish I would have. Her husband was attending and I thought it would be to odd. Later my daughters said I they wish i would have come, but prior when I asked they stated it would be to weird.... there was no right answer.

I have been looking for answers for a months. What I have pieced together tears me apart.

For a few years before we finally threw in the towel she would talk about divorcing. The reason always the same "I'm just not happy anymore". I was far far from perfect, but I would try - but there is not much you can do to make another happy. What we didn't do is ever go to therapy. It was discussed, but never happened. Finally one fall day - on my 39th birthday we were on a favorite hike in the mountains above our home and she hit me with it again. "I want a divorce, I am just not happy". This time i didn't try and dissuade her. I simply said "ok, lets figure out how to accomplish that". So I did. I marched it forward, I filed for divorce for her - I had her dictate what she wanted, it was mostly fair. We went down and filed together. The clerk was amazed "You two are really divorcing? You seem so happy together?"

It was finalized in March of 2010. She regretted it immediately and wanted to get back together. She wrote me love letters, she made lists of things we used to talk about doing and how great it would be to still do them. So many times I almost went back, but my darkest days single were brighter than the dark days with her. So...... we never reconciled. What I should have done is dragged her to therapy. That was my duty as childhood friend, spouse, lover.

Why didn't I hear her? She wasn't happy. That was a cry for help. I was wrapped up in how it was bad for me, but I was not wrapped up in how do I help her. Today I would get her therapy so fast. There is so much I could have done.

None of this is to say I wish I had stayed married. I am in fact glad we divorced it was the best thing for me, but why couldn't I help her along the way.

I am now many things I never would have imagined. Success upon success it would seem. However I failed harder and deeper and worse than anyone can ever fail, I did not see that my best friend desperately needed help. Thirteen years later still not finding happiness she took the last step she could to relieve her pain. Now my daughters and I live in pain. A pain you see in new wrinkles around my eyes from sleepless nights. From hair that was graying but is now solidly white. If you find yourself in my shoes - don't worry about making the person mad at you, piss them the hell off if you have to. Get them help. God knows I will spend the rest of my days wishing I did.

[hawkgt]

glad your sharing frozen, thank you very much.

I know its words from e world, don't beat yourself up, this is not on you.

edit: https://988lifeline.org/ 988 is the suicide and crisis lifeline created by FCC, dial 988 for access nationwide US

[Danno]

I'm sorry for your pain, frozen, and for the pain of your children and loved ones. But you are a better man for sharing and processing that pain, and I hope that brings you some solace.

[MakersTeleMark]

Kind of a moot point, but you can't make someone happy or go to therapy.

[frozenwater]

Kind of a moot point, but you can't make someone happy or go to therapy.

First, thank you for your intention - which is I shouldn't blame myself. I hear it, I understand it. Thank you.

And of course you are correct. There is no kidnapping and taking to a therapist. But for some damn reason I didn't so much as offer it up but as an aside once or twice. "maybe we should to to therapy" fell far short of what I could have done. I also want to believe that having failed and living with that failure I may possibly touch some random reader to do what I didn't, and push a bit harder. Hard enough that even if suicide is still the end result they don't say "man, I wish i would have been a bit more forceful in trying to get them help".

OH - Massive thank you to all who read, who sent texts who reached out in many ways. It means a lot to this old maggot. (I think I am older than iceman now, not sure how that happened)

[zion zig zag]

First, thank you for your intention - which is I shouldn't blame myself. I hear it, I understand it. Thank you.

And of course you are correct. There is no kidnapping and taking to a therapist. But for some damn reason I didn't so much as offer it up but as an aside once or twice. "maybe we should to to therapy" fell far short of what I could have done. I also want to believe that having failed and living with that failure I may possibly touch some random reader to do what I didn't, and push a bit harder. Hard enough that even if suicide is still the end result they don't say "man, I wish i would have been a bit more forceful in trying to get them help".

OH - Massive thank you to all who read, who sent texts who reached out in many ways. It means a lot to this old maggot. (I think I am older than iceman now, not sure how that happened)

Let's grab that lunch we talked about. Hell, let's have it at Snowbasin, I have a half off ticket with your name on it.

[rideit]

Hey Mr. Water, I’ll reach out via PM if that’s cool. I applaude your strength!

[LHutz Esq]

My brother Frozen, nothing you can do can change the past.

You can tell yourself that if you had acted in a different way, things would have been different.

Without putting too fine a point on it - you may not have or have ever had the power you feel you could have brought to the situation.

Therapy is not a secret, she knew of its existence, and it is not a cure all. It may have changed the ultimate outcome but probably would not have. Your alternative plan of action may have prolonged things, may have damaged others, may have ended in a million different outcomes as many worse than better.

Which is all to say, I hope you forgive yourself.

[skiJ]

Solid essay, frozen-

(mtm - buggar Off. )

from my experience, frozen- ,
the things we do in relative-youth ( 30s and early 40s ) ,,, that we see differently this side of 50...

Depression is real ( ask Lincoln. or Springsteen. ) - And it can be treated.

You can't make someone happy. but one can take a spouse or a partner for therapy ( Maybe only once. it depends ) And to someone your spouse's doctor recommends ( at least once ) ;

A word of caution -
Please heal - your young son - And your wife - deserve(s) the better of You !
it's been six months ( almost ) ;
give yourself a year. And Then
give yourself another year...

( If after a year you feel more "pain" than " I'm alright "
Please consider grief counseling. And

Ask your daughters
( their loss is Big. ) ) .

My Condolences ! !!

( friends with better faith than my own assure me Michelle is at-peace. )

You've done a good thing with your post, frozen-

Thank you.
With love

tj

[byates1]

Hope you are doing well mister. That's a wrenching read. Best wishes.

[skiJ]

glad your sharing frozen, thank you very much.

I know its words from e world, don't beat yourself up, this is not on you.

edit: https://988lifeline.org/ 988 is the suicide and crisis lifeline created by FCC, dial 988 for access nationwide US

+1 100%

Thank you. tj

[ötzi]

Honestly if my wife hit me multiple times with the "I want a divorce" business and did it again on my birthday, on a nice hike, I sure as shit wouldn't have suggested therapy either. I might have pushed her off the bluff but I would definitely not have suggested therapy. So don't beat yourself up my brother, you were just human. The past is gone. We go forward. There's no other real choice.

[skiJ]

Honestly if my wife hit me multiple times with the "I want a divorce" business and did it again on my birthday, on a nice hike, I sure as shit wouldn't have suggested therapy either. I might have pushed her off the bluff but I would definitely not have suggested therapy. So don't beat yourself up my brother, you were just human. The past is gone. We go forward. There's no other real choice.

+1

[Jax]

...don't worry about making the person mad at you, piss them the hell off if you have to. Get them help. God knows I will spend the rest of my days wishing I did.

I know this all too well and think 'what if' every day. Thanks for sharing Fred and know that you are not suffering alone. Every damned day I have regrets that I didn't do more, that I didn't answer that one last phone call from him.

There's nothing we can do but live each and every day as best as we can. I often nod to the skies in honor and remembrance; it's all I can do. We'll be there, too, soon enough.

I hope you and your little family are finding the light with each passing day. You have so many reasons to be happy on this earth. Don't forget that.

[Meadow Skipper]

There's nothing we can do but live each and every day as best as we can. I often nod to the skies in honor and remembrance; it's all I can do. We'll be there, too, soon enough.

I hope you and your little family are finding the light with each passing day. You have so many reasons to be happy on this earth. Don't forget that.

This is so well said, all I can do is echo it. My deepest and most heartfelt wishes for peace to all.

[RShea]

Really hard that her depression, then life decisions and unhappiness lead to her choice of not wanting to be here on earth any longer. That is hard and you may want to discuss the idea of you and your daughter doing grief counseling. You can't beat yourself up over the fact that things maybe would have been different if you had just taken her for counseling, as much as you loved her, she really sounds like for some reason she did not love herself. Continue to celebrate the fact that she did give you a daughter and that you and your daughter are going to always miss her, but the mental anguish thinking of you could have taken her to counseling and it would have been all better is not healthy.

[MakersTeleMark]

The only time I've been successful stopping a suicide was slapping the gun out of my friend's mouth while my back was turned reading his note and I split second figured it out. The last one of my friends to do the deed, I was talking with him face to face and he was verbally and physically in a lot of pain. He had just recovered from 9 months being bed ridden after a horrific moto crash and was just getting back to work. I scrambled around and came back to him with 3 advil. He was like, "no man, thanks though, means a lot". 2 days later he shot himself.

Inner demons are just that. Theirs' shouldn't become yours.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Nothing but love Frozen. Its a crazy life! This world is a better place with you in it. Keep your head up brother.

[BmillsSkier]

glad your sharing frozen, thank you very much.

I know its words from e world, don't beat yourself up, this is not on you.

edit: https://988lifeline.org/ 988 is the suicide and crisis lifeline created by FCC, dial 988 for access nationwide US

I'm sorry for your pain, frozen, and for the pain of your children and loved ones. But you are a better man for sharing and processing that pain, and I hope that brings you some solace.

I can’t add much more meaningful than this, so I want to thank you for sharing and I’m so sorry for your and your family’s pain. I wish you nothing but peace Frozen.

[EWG]

I’m so sorry man. This is really hard.

Regardless of what we think, this is not a practice life. The vast majority of us are trying really hard to do things right. But we are out here in the sharp end, with no warm up runs, always jumping straight into the fire. Looking back we get the benefit of that first time which makes us think we should have known better. But we were doing the best we could at the time, dealing with changing circumstances happening in real time with no pause button.

You’re human, and you’ll make mistakes, and that’s how life is built. That how “time” works. Fundamentally set up for us to not know the right course of action. So our job is not to be flawless, it’s too react to the changing situation as best we can.

This is not a thing you can carry to the grave. You are already bearing enough weight, and life requires you to stay light and nimble.

You were always gonna be less than perfect, and you always will. Just a matter of how. There is nothing to forgive. It’s, quite simply, how this life works.

[Art Shirk]

++++++Frozen+++++++


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[TNKen]

So sorry. Hindsight is 20/20. I leave court or depositions often thinking about things I should have said, points I should have made, and for some strange reason, think it would have made the case turn out differently. The reality is we don't know whether that is true or not, or whether it would have made any difference.

I have managed to intervene at an appropriate time with clients on two occasions who were planning, down to the gun and a note. Both were over legal issues that in my mind were pretty minimal, but ate them alive inside. Didn't see the warning signs in one other and she hung herself. They don't teach you that shit in law school.

The mind is vastly unknown. When it gets out of sorts, it does strange things to people. Depression is real, and suicide is forever, changing everyone around. What could I have done, if I had only.... You can't beat yourself up.

[Art Shirk]

So sorry. Hindsight is 20/20. I leave court or depositions often thinking about things I should have said, points I should have made, and for some strange reason, think it would have made the case turn out differently. The reality is we don't know whether that is true or not, or whether it would have made any difference.

I have managed to intervene at an appropriate time with clients on two occasions who were planning, down to the gun and a note. Both were over legal issues that in my mind were pretty minimal, but ate them alive inside. Didn't see the warning signs in one other and she hung herself. They don't teach you that shit in law school.

The mind is vastly unknown. When it gets out of sorts, it does strange things to people. Depression is real, and suicide is forever, changing everyone around. What could I have done, if I had only.... You can't beat yourself up.

Makes me think of my wife, who is also an attorney. She helps on workers comp side and has such a big heart. Everyday she is consoling people who have gone through trauma, been kicked around, lost everything, etc etc and manages others’ suicidal thoughts and red flags every week. Last week she had two clients take their lives and it ruins her each time and she wonders what more she could do. Guilt is such an insidious and unfair emotion in these instances but it infects her and others in a similar position.

Sorry Frozen - don’t mean to make this about me or my wife, but more to say that I hope you take it easy on yourself as hard as that can be.


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