Declining Skilled Trade

[nickwm21]

Applications for technical/trade jobs have been declining for almost two decades. This affects us all in a major way. It’s not just having to book an appointment three weeks out for new brakes on the minivan…. How will we house, transport, and feed our population if no one wants to do the hard work? Our politicians like to use large infrastructure spending bills to shore up our economy in tough times… Who will build that infrastructure during the next downturn; Gen Z will be too busy chatting with their “coworkers” on Slack?

What caused this issue? The culture of “If you don’t go to college, you’re fucked”? No Child Left Behind aligning education dollars with test scores and killing all the shop classes? The MBAification of corporate life, middle management bloat, too many spreadsheet noodling opportunities? The use of immigrants as political fodder in lieu of using their skills to support the economy?

Maybe this issue fixes itself economically if we let supply and demand work naturally, but who wants to spend $700 on an oil change…. Maybe we should look at the college-centric culture of high schools…. Maybe taxpayers should fund trade schools…

….Just musings from a college educated, middle manager between zoom calls….


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Mazderati]

There's nothing stopping college grads from working trades and if every job site was like This Old House there might be more interest but that's not reality.

[highangle]

Applications for technical/trade jobs have been declining for almost two decades.

Who told you that?

[mud]

Personally I don't trust the work if they are speaking English.
If I hear eastern Europeans or Spanish I know these guys are going to do a solid job.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Don't forget the Irish plasterers.

[JimmyCarter]

Local technical high school is awesome (https://essexnorthshore.org/ ) but heard anecdotally from a parent that enrollment is down and they’re not even able to offer plumbing courses this year because no one signed up.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Applications for technical/trade jobs have been declining for almost two decades. This affects us all in a major way. It’s not just having to book an appointment three weeks out for new brakes on the minivan…. How will we house, transport, and feed our population if no one wants to do the hard work? Our politicians like to use large infrastructure spending bills to shore up our economy in tough times… Who will build that infrastructure during the next downturn; Gen Z will be too busy chatting with their “coworkers” on Slack?

What caused this issue? The culture of “If you don’t go to college, you’re fucked”? No Child Left Behind aligning education dollars with test scores and killing all the shop classes? The MBAification of corporate life, middle management bloat, too many spreadsheet noodling opportunities? The use of immigrants as political fodder in lieu of using their skills to support the economy?

Maybe this issue fixes itself economically if we let supply and demand work naturally, but who wants to spend $700 on an oil change…. Maybe we should look at the college-centric culture of high schools…. Maybe taxpayers should fund trade schools…

….Just musings from a college educated, middle manager between zoom calls….


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

A certain political group loves to disparage higher education, kinda ironic when a lot of them have Ivy degrees. Ignorant and uneducated people are easier to scare I guess.

As for the trades, some pay very well. They are also hard on the body, mind and families. Detrimental living habits are widespread - hard drug use, poor eating habits, alcohol abuse, stress, you name it. There's a romantic notion about working hard and hard work, but there are some realities that need to be recognized. I've worked in the building trades for 30 years. I've seen a lot of destroyed bodies, guys dying too young, families suffering. I'd rather my kids don't follow in my footsteps.

[MarcusBrody]

A certain political group loves to disparage higher education, kinda ironic when a lot of them have Ivy degrees. Ignorant and uneducated people are easier to scare I guess.

As for the trades, some pay very well. They are also hard on the body, mind and families. Detrimental living habits are widespread - hard drug use, poor eating habits, alcohol abuse, stress, you name it. There's a romantic notion about working hard and hard work, but there are some realities that need to be recognized. I've worked in the building trades for 30 years. I've seen a lot of destroyed bodies, guys dying too young, families suffering. I'd rather my kids don't follow in my footsteps.

I think that the trades - on average - aren't as lucrative as people think they are. They can certainly be a good way to make a living, but a lot of that comes with entrepreneurship as well as the specific job. And I'm sure some union jobs are highly paid, but the Bureau of Labor Statistics data suggests that the average salary of plumbers/electricians/welders/etc. isn't as high as a lot of their online advocates would claim and it comes with all the challenges that are being discussed here.

The median pay for both electricians and plumbers is around 60k, and those are some of the highest among the trades: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction...ction/home.htm

[dunfree]

I think that the trades - on average - aren't as lucrative as people think they are. They can certainly be a good way to make a living, but a lot of that comes with entrepreneurship as well as the specific job. And I'm sure some union jobs are highly paid, but the Bureau of Labor Statistics data suggests that the average salary of plumbers/electricians/welders/etc. isn't as high as a lot of their online advocates would claim and it comes with all the challenges that are being discussed here.

The median pay for both electricians and plumbers is around 60k, and those are some of the highest among the trades: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction...ction/home.htm

this is quite correct, but you need to add income variability. Life is good when shits being built, but when things grind to a stop yer fucked


high quality trades are more like highly skilled doctors were you needed the eye, the brain, and the body

[VTskibum]

Cycling buddy of mine is a college educated builder. Hated rat race and started swinging hammers while chasing pro cycling dream and stuck with it. Owns his own business, so agree you can definitely do quite well, but that goes with entrepreneurship.

My neighbor is also college educated, might even have his masters(?) retired master carpenter. Guy can build damn near anything out of anything.

In both cases think they may be more the exception, but do/did pretty well. I'm good at working on bikes and ski tuning, but cars are out of my reach or desire to faff with. If my kids had interest I'd genuinely nudge them towards it, but not sure that grass is always greener there either!!

[Danno]

Mike Rowe loves this thread.

[mud]

Don't forget the Irish plasterers.

One of my first jobs moving to Boulder was working as a carpenter renovating a 1800's school into a retirement home.
My mentor just came over from Ireland with a ridiculous tea and blunt habit. We had about 800+ oak window casings to work on with low oversight but we got it done even with four safety meetings and six tea breaks a day.

[mcski]

Mike Rowe loves this thread.

This Old House has been bringing in apprentices and heavily promoting trade skills the last few seasons.

I like Mike Rowe mostly but he’s gone a bit over the top w the rants and fuck him anyway for stealing Dave Attell’s show schtick to begin with!

[Name Redacted]

Mike Rowe loves this thread.

I saw Mike Rowe speak recently at a trade show. Entertaining.

Funny thing about this whole "Nobody wants to work anymore" thing. I didn't want to believe it, but it is fucking true. Especially in the ski town.

[old goat]

Agree with Nick--trade schools and apprenticeships should have the same govt support as college. Declining unions, lack of benefits,--especilally pensions-lack of job security, boom and bust cycle esp in the building trades are all factors. Lack of a clear path into trades. Construction workers should be able to afford to retire when their body starts to fail.

[BCMtnHound]

I went the college tech diploma prior to committing to a university degree. Costs of education have skyrocketed since I graduated, but I still advocate a tech or trades diploma for many young seekers before committing to higher education. Gets them out of their parent’s house and accumulate some life skills along with a fall-back discipline. Those that are entrepreneurial, or can/will commit to further education, will do so.

Schools are a big part of the problem. They are in the business of selling courses, degrees and diplomas. Many in my experience really don’t care where that leaves their graduate in the market post graduation. Lots out there with associate degrees that fuck them in applying to the regulated professions, needing more course work to attain full accreditation.

Regardless, at least in Canada, we can not solve our labour shortfall with our own birth rate - we need immigration. But the system is backlogged (and suffering from the same labour shortage), and verification of overseas credentials is a very difficult process. Not to mention we have been poor about fast-tracking people not from the white half of Europe. And again, the post secondary institutes are not helping, focusing on their own bottom line first and foremost.

[nickwm21]

I went the college tech diploma prior to committing to a university degree. Costs of education have skyrocketed since I graduated, but I still advocate a tech or trades diploma for many young seekers before committing to higher education. Gets them out of their parent’s house and accumulate some life skills along with a fall-back discipline. Those that are entrepreneurial, or can/will commit to further education, will do so.

I’ve always thought taxpayers need to fund atleast 2 more years of education. After high school you should be able to either go to 2 years or trade/tech school or 2 years of college prereq at a local CC on the taxpayers dime…


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[MarcusBrody]

I saw Mike Rowe speak recently at a trade show. Entertaining.

Funny thing about this whole "Nobody wants to work anymore" thing. I didn't want to believe it, but it is fucking true. Especially in the ski town.

I mean, who wants to work? I don't particularly want to work, and I really like my job and get paid better than general trade wages. But if I won the Mega Jillions, I'd probably work at my job for a couple more years then retire to travel around and write novels, start a gear review website, fetish furniture woodworking company, you know, the standards. I'd want projects to keep myself busy, but I wouldn't want "a job." So I don't think not wanting to work is necessarily a criticism if someone is willing to put in the work necessary to reach their goals. I'll judge you if you complain about not having all the stuff you want, but being unwilling to put in the effort necessary to get it, but not for not wanting to work. Because who really does?

But really, when people say "not willing to work," they mean "don't choose certain jobs." The unemployment rate is 3.5% right now, which is lower than it's been in the past 50 years. Now I'm sure there are some people who aren't being counted as they're not actively seeking jobs when they could be, but the last time that unemployment rates were this low, something like 42% of non-institutionalized civilian women were counted as part of the labor force. Now it's 69%. Male participation is closer, but it's still higher (though down from its peak due to all the Boomers retiring). So basically historically high numbers of people have jobs. It's just that they don't want to work for Ed's Quick Lunch for $5/hour + tips and no benefits or work construction with all the boom/bust and body troubles that brings when they are not having trouble finding jobs in other fields if they're reasonably competent.

This isn't at all to say that the trades can't be a great option for some people, just that the "nobody wants to work" criticism doesn't make sense when the pool of people who aren't working is historically low.

[Name Redacted]

I mean, who wants to work? I don't particularly want to work, and I really like my job and get paid better than general trade wages. But if I won the Mega Jillions, I'd probably work at my job for a couple more years then retire to travel around and write novels, start a gear review website, fetish furniture woodworking company, you know, the standards. I'd want projects to keep myself busy, but I wouldn't want "a job." So I don't think not wanting to work is necessarily a criticism if someone is willing to put in the work necessary to reach their goals. I'll judge you if you complain about not having all the stuff you want, but being unwilling to put in the effort necessary to get it, but not for not wanting to work. Because who really does?

But really, when people say "not willing to work," they mean "don't choose certain jobs." The unemployment rate is 3.5% right now, which is lower than it's been in the past 50 years. Now I'm sure there are some people who aren't being counted as they're not actively seeking jobs when they could be, but the last time that unemployment rates were this low, something like 42% of non-institutionalized civilian women were counted as part of the labor force. Now it's 69%. Male participation is closer, but it's still higher (though down from its peak due to all the Boomers retiring). So basically historically high numbers of people have jobs. It's just that they don't want to work for Ed's Quick Lunch for $5/hour + tips and no benefits or work construction with all the boom/bust and body troubles that brings when they are not having trouble finding jobs in other fields if they're reasonably competent.

This isn't at all to say that the trades can't be a great option for some people, just that the "nobody wants to work" criticism doesn't make sense when the pool of people who aren't working is historically low.

I think that it is far more pronounced in resort areas. No one wants to work service jobs anymore in those areas because they don’t support the cost of living as easily as they once did. And yeah, i dont want to work, at least to a point. But i have to to afford new skies and stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fastfred]

yawn

we been here before I think?

been smoking weed all day picked up some trash and swept some floors listening to too much spanish gangstar rap talked boat loads of shit today had some tough conversations rubbed one out 7 figures a year piss away 25k a week

don't let your kids go into the trades you owe it to your kids swinging a hammer all through your twenties and them some outside in the cold and heat with pow pow days off is rough way to go down on the man

[MarcusBrody]

I think that it is far more pronounced in resort areas. No one wants to work service jobs anymore in those areas because they don’t support the cost of living as easily as they once did. And yeah, i dont want to work, at least to a point. But i have to to afford new skies and stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For sure. Skis and bikes are great labor motivators in my circle.

But I think I just take umbrage when folks say that people "don't want to work" when they really mean "I don't want to pay a salary that would convince someone to work for me." Your ski town example is a good one. I'm sure that there are plenty of young people who would love to live in a ski town, work as a waiter/dishwasher/bartender at night and ski all day, but when a studio/1bd apartment is 2k a month, they couldn't afford it. And that's a lot less "not wanting to work" and more "evaluating the realities of their situation." So places can absolutely have acute labor shortages even if people are willing to work.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Schools are a big part of the problem. They are in the business of selling courses, degrees and diplomas. Many in my experience really don’t care where that leaves their graduate in the market post graduation. Lots out there with associate degrees that fuck them in applying to the regulated professions, needing more course work to attain full accreditation.

But you also have employers, white collar mostly but not exclusive, that expect higher education to be job training. Mentoring and culture building are non-existent. There's no value seen in a classic well rounded education that provides many skills past the career specific field.

If you crunch the numbers, I'm in my 3rd and a half career field, and that's after a pretty good higher education. None have the job fields have been related to my course of study, but damn me if I haven't used my education every day of my work life.

[Yukonrider]

While the trades are getting killed by college centric society, the trades are also killing themselves with all their toxic BS.

I am around the trades (mostly residential construction related) a lot, and know a lot of folks in it. Once you get away from custom remodeling, its wild out there, all sorts of toxic masculinity BS. Really sucks for guys starting out, and most are gone in a few months because why carry 2 sheets of 3/4 OSB by yourself just because you're the new guy.

[2FUNKY]

I think that it is far more pronounced in resort areas. No one wants to work service jobs anymore in those areas because they don’t support the cost of living as easily as they once did. And yeah, i dont want to work, at least to a point. But i have to to afford new skies and stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Blue skies or cloudy? I would buy blue ones if I could.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[altacoup]

Personally I don't trust the work if they are speaking English.
If I hear eastern Europeans or Spanish I know these guys are going to do a solid job.

Good luck getting a licensed electrician or plumber that doesn’t speak English. Although the NEC is also the standard in most of Latin America.

I think that the trades - on average - aren't as lucrative as people think they are. They can certainly be a good way to make a living, but a lot of that comes with entrepreneurship as well as the specific job. And I'm sure some union jobs are highly paid, but the Bureau of Labor Statistics data suggests that the average salary of plumbers/electricians/welders/etc. isn't as high as a lot of their online advocates would claim and it comes with all the challenges that are being discussed here.

The median pay for both electricians and plumbers is around 60k, and those are some of the highest among the trades: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction...ction/home.htm

Those average wages are pushed down by states that don’t even require licensing for plumbers and electricians. Any commercial level journeyman electrician on the west coast is making over $50/hr. I know of a large company in SLC that pays a master electrician $250k a year to keep their technicians compliant with the law and occasionally come wire larger equipment. Guy doesn’t clock 9-5 there. If you’re skilled at building/troubleshooting control circuits for industrial facilities, that’s easily $100/hr and electrical contractors would be fighting each other to hire that skill. But any electrician with those skills is going to pass the masters test and start their own business.

Like most things that have fallen apart in this country, the deregulation and destruction of the unions that occurred in the 80s is coming home to roost.

I have a 4 year college honors degree and I’m also a commercial journeyman electrician. Taking my masters test in a year. One thing about licensed trades that is ridiculous is that there is no national test and reciprocity. Utah requires 3 tests for a commercial license. Code/theory/practical. Most states require 1 test that is a mix of code/theory. Despite passing what are some of the most rigorous tests in the country, if I want to work in California or NY I need to take another test. Now those tests are easier, so not really a problem. But it’s ridiculous all the same. And the states that don’t even require licenses are just insane (surprise surprise they’re all in the south). I was talking with some lineman the other day who told me they refuse to work with lineman from the south as most of those guys have just bought a license and have zero training. States that allow people to work on distribution level electricity with zero training is crazy. Shocking that the Texas grid has issues.

Outside of the licensed trades the rest of the trades have been totally screwed by the devaluation of their skills and lack of regulation. There’s a reason the non licensed trades predominantly speak Spanish. I also speak fluent Spanish. Worked as a esl teacher in Spain for 3 years, after a year studying there in college. Pretty funny when the whitest guy around (I’m Finnish/Irish/German) starts speaking fluent Castilian on the job. Unless people are willing to pay what the trades are worth, they will be filled by immigrant labor. Been that way since this country was founded. At this point if we don’t start letting skilled workers in or actively promote more training we won’t be able to build anything.

I read the other day that the necessary transition to a more electrified economy versus oil/gas in order to slow climate change will require at least a half million electricians in this country. Schooling costs are almost always covered by the employer if the apprentice keeps good grades. If you know kids who want a good job and zero debt and also want to help save the planet. Tell them about becoming an electrician.