Chicken Feet Thread 🐓

[gregL]

That may be the case too. What I said was from personal experience. I also could be remembering incorrectly.

If only they would build a boot off of the now discounted S/Max dimensions.

Regardless, it’s good to see another narrow-lasted touring boot hit the market.

Out of the box, I'd call the instep height of the Hawx Ultra and S/Pro Alpha a draw, but with some insteps the higher buckle placement of the Salomon might be more effective at making the fit snugger. The cuff diameter on the Salomon is very slightly larger, with the emphasis on "very" - these two are still by far the narrowest cuffs in the industry. Internal length on the Salomon is ~2mm longer (or feels like it).

[gregL]

. . . they won't bring back the lower instep lasts of the X/Max and S/Max because too many people complained about it. If a boot crunches your instep out of the box, you won't end up buying it.

[DoubleBogey]

Is Hawx smaller cuff diameter true for that whole line?

[gregL]

Is Hawx smaller cuff diameter true for that whole line?

Whole Hawx line? The Hawx Ultra is what we're talking about - the Hawx Prime and Hawx Magna are bigger and BIGGER yet.

[Steffen1]

These boot conversations are always going to go in circles until manufacturers become motivated to design solutions for modularity and fitment options. (Not just pho fitment flexibility and a lineup of differing models with unclear and undisclosed fitment objectives.)

For my wide forefoot and skinny ankle I'm having 85% success using a Mach1 130 HV and the following mods:

• stock liner with tongue moved (velcro) 1.5cm backward. I also ground the material thin around the 5th toe and 5th met.
• 4mm incompressible bootboard shim plus a 5mm semi-compressible foam shim. (under liners)
• custom insole (duh)
• forward punch at big toes
• many punches to gain space for 4th toe, 5th toe (pinky), and 5th met. All of them 50% successful.
• circular inside-ankle cutouts glued to exterior of both liners using 5mm foam. Approx 6" diameter with 1.5" center hole removed for ankle bone protrusion.
• floating 2x3" foam piece (5mm) that I wedge on top of the tongue after putting the boot on, pushing it all way down to occupy space at the bottom of the shin. I might sculpt and glue these next week.

The plastic seems compliant to punching at first, but has proven very resistant to permanently yielding additional width a the toes and met-last.

And by 85% success, what I mean is a very performance fit (0.5 finger shell fit) with immediate ankle response, minimal heel-lift, zero cuff slop, that I can tolerate for 3+ hours, opening the buckles on lifts. If I'm going to be in boots for 6+ hours or if its below -15C then I'll swap the 4mm bootboard spacer for a 2mm one, which is a massive change in performance (less) and comfort (more).

Boot fit is 25% of ski skill

[gregL]

The plastic seems compliant to punching at first, but has proven very resistant to permanently yielding additional width a the toes and met-last.

I haven't seen your foot, but I made the Mach 1 130 LV work for my 117mm wide foot (26.5) and the plastic stayed in place. Chances are you are not getting the plastic hot enough. Also, it's possible to punch for the maleolus (even if it's directly under the cuff rivet) but it takes some finesse. More space is better than more padding.

[DoubleBogey]

These boot conversations are always going to go in circles until manufacturers become motivated to design solutions for modularity and fitment options. (Not just pho fitment flexibility and a lineup of differing models with unclear and undisclosed fitment objectives.)

For my wide forefoot and skinny ankle I'm having 85% success using a Mach1 130 HV and the following mods:

• stock liner with tongue moved (velcro) 1.5cm backward. I also ground the material thin around the 5th toe and 5th met.
• 4mm incompressible bootboard shim plus a 5mm semi-compressible foam shim. (under liners)
• custom insole (duh)
• forward punch at big toes
• many punches to gain space for 4th toe, 5th toe (pinky), and 5th met. All of them 50% successful.
• circular inside-ankle cutouts glued to exterior of both liners using 5mm foam. Approx 6" diameter with 1.5" center hole removed for ankle bone protrusion.
• floating 2x3" foam piece (5mm) that I wedge on top of the tongue after putting the boot on, pushing it all way down to occupy space at the bottom of the shin. I might sculpt and glue these next week.

The plastic seems compliant to punching at first, but has proven very resistant to permanently yielding additional width a the toes and met-last.

And by 85% success, what I mean is a very performance fit (0.5 finger shell fit) with immediate ankle response, minimal heel-lift, zero cuff slop, that I can tolerate for 3+ hours, opening the buckles on lifts. If I'm going to be in boots for 6+ hours or if its below -15C then I'll swap the 4mm bootboard spacer for a 2mm one, which is a massive change in performance (less) and comfort (more).

Boot fit is 25% of ski skill

Have you tried Zipfits?

[Judo Chop!]

These boot conversations are always going to go in circles until manufacturers become motivated to design solutions for modularity and fitment options. (Not just pho fitment flexibility and a lineup of differing models with unclear and undisclosed fitment objectives.)

For my wide forefoot and skinny ankle I'm having 85% success using a Mach1 130 HV and the following mods:

• stock liner with tongue moved (velcro) 1.5cm backward. I also ground the material thin around the 5th toe and 5th met.
• 4mm incompressible bootboard shim plus a 5mm semi-compressible foam shim. (under liners)
• custom insole (duh)
• forward punch at big toes
• many punches to gain space for 4th toe, 5th toe (pinky), and 5th met. All of them 50% successful.
• circular inside-ankle cutouts glued to exterior of both liners using 5mm foam. Approx 6" diameter with 1.5" center hole removed for ankle bone protrusion.
• floating 2x3" foam piece (5mm) that I wedge on top of the tongue after putting the boot on, pushing it all way down to occupy space at the bottom of the shin. I might sculpt and glue these next week.

The plastic seems compliant to punching at first, but has proven very resistant to permanently yielding additional width a the toes and met-last.

And by 85% success, what I mean is a very performance fit (0.5 finger shell fit) with immediate ankle response, minimal heel-lift, zero cuff slop, that I can tolerate for 3+ hours, opening the buckles on lifts. If I'm going to be in boots for 6+ hours or if its below -15C then I'll swap the 4mm bootboard spacer for a 2mm one, which is a massive change in performance (less) and comfort (more).

Boot fit is 25% of ski skill

dude get zip fits

[Ørion]

dude get zip fits

As someone with a foot shaped like a pizza slice with a toothpick stuck in the pointy end, this is the way.

[Cocximus]

What about using these types of heel wedges for skinny ankles?

[PeaHead96]

As someone with a foot shaped like a pizza slice with a toothpick stuck in the pointy end, this is the way.

This is how I’ll forever reference my feet and legs from here on out

[PeaHead96]

Out of the box, I'd call the instep height of the Hawx Ultra and S/Pro Alpha a draw, but with some insteps the higher buckle placement of the Salomon might be more effective at making the fit snugger. The cuff diameter on the Salomon is very slightly larger, with the emphasis on "very" - these two are still by far the narrowest cuffs in the industry. Internal length on the Salomon is ~2mm longer (or feels like it).

With the new Hawx Ultra XTD being PU plastic, is it better suited for toe punches?

If so, how much room could I expect to get in the toe if I were working with a skilled fitter?

Preferably a toe punch that I’ll still be able to use with alpine bindings.

But also curious as to how much I could get if I didn’t need to worry about the toe piece on alpine bindings and was just using tech toes.

[gregL]

With the new Hawx Ultra XTD being PU plastic, is it better suited for toe punches?

If so, how much room could I expect to get in the toe if I were working with a skilled fitter?

Preferably a toe punch that I’ll still be able to use with alpine bindings.

But also curious as to how much I could get if I didn’t need to worry about the toe piece on alpine bindings and was just using tech toes.

Yes, it punches better than the previous Polyamide or Grilamid versions.

Most good fitters should be able to get 5-6mm without difficulty, but how effective the toe punch is varies depending on the shape of your forefoot - it's easy to do just the big toe, for instance, tougher if you need room all the way around the toes. Bindings are all different; with big toe punches the ones to watch out for are usually the Shift and the STH2 (you can't have contact between the toepiece wings and the shell).

[gregL]

What about using these types of heel wedges for skinny ankles?

Try it and see how it feels skiing with a bend in your ankle above the talus . . . also watch out if you have medial malleolus or navicular issues.

[Steffen1]

... I made the Mach 1 130 LV work for my 117mm wide foot (26.5) and the plastic stayed in place. Chances are you are not getting the plastic hot enough...

woah, you have a super wide feet for size 26.5. I'm guessing you own a punch press? I'll look into the temperature aspect further for sure.
I'm a US 12.5 or mondo 30, and I think 121mm across the mets. After 5 punches for width we got to about 120mm outside shell width, which is about 7mm wider than stock. That was two different shops, at both we discussed how to maximize the impact with temp/timing. Sooo wft ha. Annoying. I need wider!


This is technique #2:

Still looking for the right material to fit and epoxy over the holes. I have some automotive fiberglass with resin but its imprecise to work with and unsure how it will bond to the plastic, or how it feels about getting chipped at by ski edges...

[Judo Chop!]

I'm 128mm wide foot in a 29.5mondo, and have fit multiple LV boots with punching. Yours can definitely be done.
Next time go see Barry @ Ski Connexions in whistler.

...and get zipfits.

"automotive fiberglass" doesn't mean much, but it is likely polyester resin.
I would assume those boots you cut are Grilamid, so it won't bond properly.

I think Cyanoacrylate (ie. superglue, etc.) or polyamide glue will bond something like a fabric, but it's brittle so not for something stiff. You'll probably have to do lots of trial/error.

A good 2-part laminating epoxy (get the good stuff from fibertek, or amazon marine epoxy) might hold.

Or you could get some polyamide sticks and do a plastic weld. Not much to risk at this point.

[carlh]

How much does the cuff circumference change per boot size? I’m in a 28.5 hawx ultra and with the cuff was a bit tighter so wondering how much tighter a 27.5 would be.

[PeaHead96]

How much does the cuff circumference change per boot size? I’m in a 28.5 hawx ultra and with the cuff was a bit tighter so wondering how much tighter a 27.5 would be.

While the lower clogs of ski boots are different for every size — cuffs are the same for every two sizes.

26.5 and 27.5 share the same cuff. 28.5 and 29.5 share the same cuff… and so on

So, a 27.5 will be tighter cuff than the 28.5

You’re lucky, I measure 29.5 and ski a 28.5. No way I could fit a 27.5, but I sure wish I could because of the tighter cuff.

[PeaHead96]

Bumping the thread to get a consensus on possible new purchase...

Currently skiing a Hawx XTD BOA -- overall pretty solid boot for my anatomy and preferred stance. Have had to punch the first and fifth met heads. I do wish the instep was lower, and it would be sweet if the circumference of the cuff was even tighter. Will probably throw the Gnar Bar on these and use them for my resort needs until I find something with a better fit.

I have found a brand new pair of the since discontinued Salmon S/Max one-twenties and one-thirties for sale in my size. I do recall that people said the instep was lower and that the cuff is the same size or even a smidge smaller than the Hawx Ultra. Is this a worthwhile purchase?

Other boots I have on my radar are the K-two Cortex, Atomic Remedy, Atomic Hawx Ultra RS, and Nordica Dobermann five M or five S

If several or any of those boots would accomplish the same task of lowering the instep and providing the same or even tighter of a cuff circumference -- then I see no point in spending approx. four hundred dollars on a pair of boots that have been discontinued for three years ago.

[mookieman]

I read the Blister preview on the Remedy - they seem pretty sweet. I’m hoping we get more options in the race inspired freeride / off-piste boot category. Loving the idea of a heavy boot in a (mostly) accessible last width. Not sure if the shock absorption in the sole is real or marketing BS - I’m inclined to think the latter. The extra material connecting the two soles would definitely increase rigidity, but who knows if that’s wanted or needed off the groomers.

[SnowMachine]

Bumping the thread to get a consensus on possible new purchase... Currently skiing a Hawx XTD BOA -- overall pretty solid boot for my anatomy and preferred stance. Have had to punch the first and fifth met heads. I do wish the instep was lower, and it would be sweet if the circumference of the cuff was even tighter. Will probably throw the Gnar Bar on these and use them for my resort needs until I find something with a better fit. I have found a brand new pair of the since discontinued Salmon S/Max one-twenties and one-thirties for sale in my size. I do recall that people said the instep was lower and that the cuff is the same size or even a smidge smaller than the Hawx Ultra. Is this a worthwhile purchase? Other boots I have on my radar are the K-two Cortex, Atomic Remedy, Atomic Hawx Ultra RS, and Nordica Dobermann five M or five S If several or any of those boots would accomplish the same task of lowering the instep and providing the same or even tighter of a cuff circumference -- then I see no point in spending approx. four hundred dollars on a pair of boots that have been discontinued for three years ago.

Try the S Pro Alpha. The fit of the RS is the same as your XTD assuming it is an Ultra. See comments in the Atomic thread about the Remedy. I have a pair, but have not skied them. My daily is the Hawx Ultra RS. I had a pair of the Ultra XTD BOA, but basically wore them out dailying them.

[PeaHead96]

GregL mentions above that the S Pro Alpha has the same instep height and an ever so slightly larger cuff than the Hawx Ultra. I'd still be willing to try and see for myself.

But I went ahead and pulled the trigger on those S/Max I found. I'm pretty sure the instep will be lower than the Hawx Ultra, and I expect the cuff to be comparably narrow. I think my ultimate fit will one day end up being a pair of Dobermanns. Or maybe the new K-two Cortex will be a good fit. Only thing is the Cortex has a ramp angle of two.five degrees -- which is a little too flat for my taste.

Sucks to hear that the Remedy has the same instep height as an Hawx Ultra -- it being a narrower boot doesn't really help me since I already need to punch the Hawx Ultra, but I do understand that my foot type is among the less than one percentile of skiers.

Have tried skiing the Tecnica Mach One LV before, the instep is actually properly low for me, but the cuff is just humongous. Would be a great boot for me if it had an Ultra cuff on it.

[PeaHead96]

Also, for those looking for a touring boot that walks better and weighs less than the Hawx Ultra XTD Boa -- I would push you to try on the new Maestrale RS.

The instep buckle is the same type that is found on other cabrio designs and it does an excellent job of locking the ankle down. I saw some reviews online that said the Maestrale RS is a high volume fit -- and I have no clue what they're talking about. From what I can tell it's the same exact shell fit as the Quattro, but the same shell fit is found in one size larger.

I'm stuck between sizes on the Quattro, where the bigger size is a little too much volume in the instep and cuff, and the smaller size is far too tight in the toe box for touring (even if they were significantly punched). But that smaller size in the Maestrale RS -- now that's a great fit. I'm going to plug a GFT liner in them, add a spoiler, and strap a booster on top of the liner. I'll report back when I get some actual time on them, but I'm rather optimistic.

The only other touring option I'm considering trying is a Zero G Pro Tour downsized to a BSL that is comparative to my alpine boots. It would need some significant punching for the big toe and first and fifth met heads -- but I think the right bootfitter might be able to make that happen.

[SnowMachine]

S Pro Alpha definitely felt like a lower instep to me. I couldn't even put that boot on.
The Hawx Ultra's have a pretty generous instep.

[asmvolatile]

Also, for those looking for a touring boot that walks better and weighs less than the Hawx Ultra XTD Boa -- I would push you to try on the new Maestrale RS. The instep buckle is the same type that is found on other cabrio designs and it does an excellent job of locking the ankle down. I saw some reviews online that said the Maestrale RS is a high volume fit -- and I have no clue what they're talking about. From what I can tell it's the same exact shell fit as the Quattro, but the same shell fit is found in one size larger. I'm stuck between sizes on the Quattro, where the bigger size is a little too much volume in the instep and cuff, and the smaller size is far too tight in the toe box for touring (even if they were significantly punched). But that smaller size in the Maestrale RS -- now that's a great fit. I'm going to plug a GFT liner in them, add a spoiler, and strap a booster on top of the liner. I'll report back when I get some actual time on them, but I'm rather optimistic. The only other touring option I'm considering trying is a Zero G Pro Tour downsized to a BSL that is comparative to my alpine boots. It would need some significant punching for the big toe and first and fifth met heads -- but I think the right bootfitter might be able to make that happen.

peaHead, I'm the exact same foot as you. In the Quattro right now but am having issues with the cuff being too big and heel isn't locked down like I want. I'm almost always 28.5 in most boots but am in the 29.5/30 Quattro given the silly scarpa sizing break. Which size in the new Maestrale did you find worked better for you?

also totally echo your thoughts on the Mach1. I've been in a 28.5 Mach 1 130 for the last few years and while the lower clog is perfect, I could drive a semi truck in the space between my leg and the cuff.