Antiwork

[frorider]

What do you think Executives do? Also, tying direct work hours is a bit of a misnomer in a lot of thought-driven industries. One productive hour could eclipse thousands of non-productive ones from an outcome perspective. To paraphrase - there is not necessarily a linear relationship between hours worked and value created in many roles.

At my R&D former job I could feel all the strands of thought kinda percolating in my head during most waking hours. This lead to some breakthroughs (for lack of a better word) as I was walking the dog at 10 am or taking a shower at 7 pm after a mtb ride. Really hard to quantify how many hours I worked per week but the flexibility was awesome & appreciated…one of the reasons I always try to be kind toward frontline workers in the service industry.

[Flounder]

Here is an easy one:


What quality of life should a worker at a meat packing plant have after being deemed “essential” and required to work in close conditions with little mitigations for CoVID?

Should they be able to afford a car, a home, a new fridge, retirement savings?

They are “essential” after all.

Well for starters, a path to citizenship would be nice. So many of them don’t have basic workers rights because of the threat of ICE hanging over them.

[AdironRider]

I think a large part of the "problem" is the assumption that in the back in the day no one faced adversity.

[Supermoon]

3. We all need to push for better regulatory enforcement. As many have said, most things are legitimate wage theft, rewriting of time cards and other explicitly disallowed actions that companies get away with because regulatory agencies and methods have been so gutted by regulatory capture and lobbying.

Wage theft is by far the biggest form of theft and it’s not punishable in criminal courts. If your employer steals $1000 from you (a human) via wage theft you can try to sue them (or the gov’t labor agency can try), but you steal $1000 from your employer (a non-human entity) you can go to jail.

[Mustonen]

So what is boast-worthy? Is anything? is anything worth being proud of, or is every success just a gift that must have come easy to you?

As a society, I think we should celebrate hard work and effort. I also think we should celebrate intelligence and learning and health and wealth. We shouldn’t be a dick about any of them, because you have less to do with any of them than you seem to think.

Why do we think a 40 hour workweek is the standard? Because most people are capable of putting in that effort. I used to be able to pull 80 hour weeks for months and months. That was before kids and getting older. I just can’t do it now on any kind of repetitive basis, partially because I’m older, partially because I have other obligations, partially because it just isn’t worth it to me anymore.

It’s a continuum. At this point I’m in the 50-60 hour range. But if I’m on the 20 hours/week of sustained effort continuum (lots of people who “work” 40 hours/week are actually putting in more like 15-20, you know who you are), but am still a net positive to the economy at that level of contribution, shouldn’t I be able to do so without starving?

[TahoeJ]

What do you think Executives do? Also, tying direct work hours is a bit of a misnomer in a lot of thought-driven industries. One productive hour could eclipse thousands of non-productive ones from an outcome perspective. To paraphrase - there is not necessarily a linear relationship between hours worked and value created in many roles.

This is also true. I work a soft 20 on average if I'm being honest, but I'd also say I work smarter not harder (I own a piece of the company so I'm comfortable with this). I've done very little tangible work the past few months other than strategic thinking and approach (aside from answering questions and giving guidance to my team), but in that process I did manage to onboard the largest client we've ever had in 15 years and as a result everyone at our company got nice quarterly bonuses due to that revenue. I can only do this because of 20+ years of experience in my industry, but none-the-less I respect the hell out of those who are grinding it out and doing "real" work.

[fastfred]

wow just here to post in this thread

woke up tried to get to work realized I have no motivation and hate my job
trying to get my end of month invoicing done now I'm motivated that I'm hitting the 120k billable mark and checking in on my friends at tgr
plan on retiring around 50 or at least getting a shitty job with no worries and working part time at 50
I'll be dead by 55
the truth is I'll still be here at 52 raking in the dough from these titans of industry traveling in my 200k van 8 weeks of the year

life is a bitch

[fastfred]

the hardest thing I'll do today besides filling an office chair with fart juice is making sure maryjanerottencrotches ice maker is making premo ice
drywallers are drywalling a house fielding a few phone calls from people who are angry with me

[hatchgreenchile]

Unless you enjoy a cynical world view , you have to mix in some R/FIRE with your R/antiwork time.

[fastfred]

reddit is a bigger cesspool than this place

wait its right up there with facebook "look I went on an adventure and this is what I had for lunch today" "whats my algorithm"

[DBdude]

Nothing makes people want to be slaves to the corporate overlords more than a boomer telling them their concerns aren't valid.

no shit

I just interviewed with Mercy Hospital in Baltimore to join their IT staff. It didn't go well

IT Director: Tell me about yourself

db: database professional for over twenty years - 12 in healthcare. I write ETL routines and manage data loads to data warehouses in ambulatory and acute care environments and I have billing and HL7 experience

IT Director: Why do you want to work here

db:I am excited to learn Epic Kaboodle, Clarity and Coghito and Healthy Planet

I am excited to drive the cost of healthcare down by giving case workers the tools and information they need to manage at risk patients. I think the cost of healthcare is an existential risk to americans.

so what I didn't say is that Mercy is a great place to work and I knew that is what they wanted to hear - and well from my research - it isn't

It Director: You seem to move around a lot and we want you to stay more than a year.

db: I am sure I will stay more than two years and some of the shortness of my tenures can be explained by contracting,

IT Director: Why do you want to leave your current team

db - to learn Kaboodle etc.

IT Direcor: We are looking for someone to stay

db: Would you like to discuss an employment contract? - In no way shape or form do I want to be a part of this team

IT Director: No we aren't thinking that

db: Yeah - I didn't think so. your recruiter reached out to me - I work on a great team. I want to learn epic as the capstone to my career in healthcare


needless to say the job didn't go forward

at my current position that I was being asked to leave, the interview process was positive and all about where the team was going and what we where going to go and that they wanted me

this job interview was about me making stuff up to make them feel good and critiquing my job history. If things went south they would fire me in a heart beat. reading their glassdoor employee comments was chilling

they wonder why the job has been open for over three months

[schuss]

Yep, in my experience most of the people whining about "the great resignation" or other trends just work for shitty companies or are shitty managers. Given remote work spreading, there's more opportunity, so if you can't compete, you're dead. I put up an experienced professional position and got over 1600 applicants in a week and a half. As I've interviewed some, by far the thing that most grabs people is my team and organizational focus on personal development and the level of empowerment or choice I give my staff. This stuff isn't that hard either, as you generally get 10x more productivity out of people over time if you can align them to the stuff they're most interested in and provide at least a modicum of support for them maturing their skills. If the team is foundationally underwater all the time, that's a management failure that management needs to fix, not for your employees to just burn themselves up trying to cover for leadership that's asleep at the wheel as ultimately when bonuses get distributed for the extra work done with the lower level of expense, very little will likely be allocated to those who actually made it happen.

[LongShortLong]

A couple decades ago I saw a housing price exhibit at the state fair in Sacramento. At the time, the average Sacramento house cost 10 years of the average wage. Several decades earlier the average Sacramento house cost twice the average wage. Since then, housing costs have risen a lot, and wages have stagnated. Sacramento is an average US city, nothing special that drives housing costs or suppresses wages.

So I will posit that the "not getting by" part of antiwork is heavily influenced by housing costs. If wages had kept up, life would be more affordable. Corporations wouldn't be able to force shitty work conditions on expendable employees trying to make rent/mortgage. I think unions and fear of communism both helped the worker get a piece of the pie. Now the corps can get away with a few dog food nuggets and keep all the pie for themselves.

[TahoeJ]

I'd estimate that 95% of the problem comes down to housing and healthcare costs. Plenty of economists have done studies showing that universal health care would lead to a massive uptick in the economy, with more people no longer afraid to start new businesses, having more spending money, etc. A lot of health admin paper pushers would lose their jobs but so what?

[Toadman]

The folks on the pour crew made more money that night than 97% of the folks that post on antiwork do in a week. Without a college education or english being their first language.

I am familiar with that line of work. Not sure it's 97%. But I do know some folks on the ports that make 6 figure salaries, have an insanely good pension and healthcare benefits that in most cases have just a GED or HS diploma. Maybe a year of vocational training at best. Can work whatever hours and whenever they choose. I can't think of too many jobs where you can sit in a truck and surf the internet while your crew works and make $250k/year. And when the fish are biting throw a line out in Elliot Bay and catch salmon while being on the clock.

[Cisco Kid]

Random "How it was"

In my peak earning year, 1980, with an AAS I made about $250k net on $300k gross in commissions in todays dollars. I worked 35, 4 day weeks/year. Using pen and paper, most small businesses were able to under report cash income and over report expenses and make more than a CPA working the books. I pity the small restaurant owner today who isn't getting 50%+ of his income in cash like my friend. He had a 6 table restaurant, drove a Porsche, paid alimony to 2 ladies and played golf 5 days a week. When I asked him how he pulled it off he said "A restaurant needs 2 cooks to be successful. One to cook the food and one to cook the books."

And teachers got to write off school supplies. That's gone.

[Peruvian]

I'd estimate that 95% of the problem comes down to housing and healthcare costs. Plenty of economists have done studies showing that universal health care would lead to a massive uptick in the economy, with more people no longer afraid to start new businesses, having more spending money, etc. A lot of health admin paper pushers would lose their jobs but so what?

The Koch Brothers funded study agrees.

[schuss]

I'd estimate that 95% of the problem comes down to housing and healthcare costs. Plenty of economists have done studies showing that universal health care would lead to a massive uptick in the economy, with more people no longer afraid to start new businesses, having more spending money, etc. A lot of health admin paper pushers would lose their jobs but so what?

Yep. Eliminating the waste that is hospital billing and health insurance (in general) would be massive. Also, not having entrepreneurship be primarily the domain of rich kids would probably mean a lot more businesses and effective solutions in the marketplace. I think there was some stat like 70%+ of funded tech startups came from just 7 universities (mostly Ivies or tech "Ivies").

[Falcon3]

And let’s not forget this isn’t about a handful of people who hit the lottery and get $100k+ jobs working with a GED. This is about society in aggregate and how it works for most people.

On average, would you say people have the same quality of life with a high school diploma as they did in 1990? I’d say hell no. In my small town growing up there weren’t many college graduates but people with HS diplomas could work 40 hours a week at grocery stores, auto parts stores, restaurants, etc and still afford to live. Now those jobs are considered “entry level” and jerks like a bunch of you think it’s just for kids to get some work experience before going to college or some shit.

“But now people should know they need a college education! A HS diploma doesn’t mean anything?”

Really!? Because that’s how we got into the student loan crisis (nearly $2T in debt there). And you jokers are telling the people that took out loans (because there’s no way most jobs in college can pay tuition plus room nowadays) that they should have planned ahead better and maybe not gone to college! Even with a degree, your average college educated job doesn’t have the buying power it used to.

“What about the trades?! People should go make big money in the trades!!”

Traditionally the trades have been great places to break your body while also not getting paid that well on average. Of course the lucky ones got into union jobs or opened their own shops but the erosion of worker protections and unions sort of shit canned that for most people. Now, there’s finally a shift in wages for trades but it’s been a long time coming.

[NWFlow]

Yeah, it just feels like the top has blown off for the wealthy and the bottom has fallen out for the rest.

I'm from a fairly privileged lower middle class family and feel some unease about the future, can't imagine what it's like without that support. I guess i feel like I'm treading water with a bit of effort, but can see how many just feel like they're being sucked under.

[JimmyCarter]

Here is an easy one:


What quality of life should a worker at a meat packing plant have after being deemed “essential” and required to work in close conditions with little mitigations for CoVID?

Should they be able to afford a car, a home, a new fridge, retirement savings?

They are “essential” after all.

This is the confusion. Everyone was saying the “worker” is essential, when what they meant was the “position“ is essential.

[Mustonen]

This is the confusion. Everyone was saying the “worker” is essential, when what they meant was the “position“ is essential.

Or maybe it’s the “work” that is essential?

The assumed structure is that businesses provide goods and services and we take for granted that the “worker” part of that equation will take care of itself with supply and demand and the free market, as if a part of the role of business isn’t also to provide work and distribute income to the workers who live in the community. Meanwhile, worker leverage has eroded as unions are busted and automation explodes.

It’s all great if you’re at the top, but it’s a game of “winning” while we tell ourselves the lie that we earned every dollar through grit, ingenuity, and determination. It’s nonsense, but it’s absolutely baked into our culture such that I’m resigned we’ll sail right off the cliff at full send.

[mb6f50]

I am familiar with that line of work. Not sure it's 97%. But I do know some folks on the ports that make 6 figure salaries, have an insanely good pension and healthcare benefits that in most cases have just a GED or HS diploma. Maybe a year of vocational training at best. Can work whatever hours and whenever they choose. I can't think of too many jobs where you can sit in a truck and surf the internet while your crew works and make $250k/year. And when the fish are biting throw a line out in Elliot Bay and catch salmon while being on the clock.

You have to win the lottery to be a longshoreman.

Then you have to have the flexibility to show up every day knowing you'll likely not get work until you get enough hours to move up the seniority ranks.

[Not DJSapp]

And let’s not forget this isn’t about a handful of people who hit the lottery and get $100k+ jobs working with a GED.

“What about the trades?! People should go make big money in the trades!!”

Traditionally the trades have been great places to break your body while also not getting paid that well on average. Of course the lucky ones got into union jobs or opened their own shops but the erosion of worker protections and unions sort of shit canned that for most people. Now, there’s finally a shift in wages for trades but it’s been a long time coming.

I guarantee if you show up at the Carpenters, Pile Drivers, or Ironworkers hall in California (anywhere) with a good attitude and willingness to work, you have a job, and in any of those trades you'll be making North of 100k within 5 years with a GED. I know everyone here loves to single out the mythical longshoreman job, but the rest of the heavy construction trades need people. Yes, the work is physically demanding, but the construction workplace is safer than it has ever been.

Ask me how I know all of this. I just updated our labor rates for 2022-2023 for NCal, OR and WA. The master agreements are up in 2024, so they're all likely to get a big inflation bump then too as they've been riding a steady 3%/year bump for the last 5 years.

And FWIW, we ran the numbers against our VP's wife who is a ER trauma doctor. Her lifetime earnings + reasonable student debt and starting work at age 30 vs. an Ironworker who apprenticed out of high school at age 18, worked uninjured, and progressed to a foreman, general foreman and superintendent. We assumed both would make similar intelligent financial and investment decisions (perhaps a questionable assumption, but we had to do something). The Ironworker makes more money and has a better retirement than the ER doc. ER doc didn't have a positive net worth until age 40 and the Ironworker was cash positive pretty much from year one.

[fastfred]

DJ
stop that shit man you know better this is tgr no one wants to hear that crap

like any fat sluff sitting at a desk all day knows he'll say "what about their body?" and yeah your fat ass sitting around all day isn't getting broken too? Just a different way?

Rather be bending rebar at 50 than sitting at a desk but people have turned into absoulute pussies