If only there was something we could do...

[dunfree]

Yes it is the average of the HIGHEST 3 consecutive years (not necessarily the last) but that does not count overtime pay. Its highest 3 consecutive BASE salary plus any education (Quinn Bill, etc)

Not sure why you linked two articles talking about cops being the highest paid town employees, of course thats true, many motivated cops basically work a full-time second job working details at like ~$100/hour. However, none of that counts towards retirement, as was your contention.

why the fuck are you going out over your skis to speak nationally as if this never has occurred? Calpers only changed recently for new employees. Derek chauvin, motivated cop, had a second job as a bouncer in addition to tax fraud!

[schuss]

Yes it is the average of the HIGHEST 3 consecutive years (not necessarily the last) but that does not count overtime pay. Its highest 3 consecutive BASE salary plus any education (Quinn Bill, etc)

Not sure why you linked two articles talking about cops being the highest paid town employees, of course thats true, many motivated cops basically work a full-time second job working details at like ~$100/hour. However, none of that counts towards retirement, as was your contention.

I don't have the full details on retirement programs here, so I'll get back on that, but the point is you have cops making 2-300k and people saying "they aren't paid enough to breach the room and risk their lives" - if that's not enough, there won't be any number that is that communities can pay therefore the solution can't be more cops. Again.

[ex-powderbroker]

basically, your thesis doesn't hold water
so now that you know this, what will you do with that knowledge?

to learn, truth needs to enter the ear of reason.

[Diamond Joe]

I don't have the full details on retirement programs here, so I'll get back on that, but the point is you have cops making 2-300k and people saying "they aren't paid enough to breach the room and risk their lives" - if that's not enough, there won't be any number that is that communities can pay therefore the solution can't be more cops. Again.

In NH, overtime & details DO count towards overall compensation and retirement, but theres a cap - a limitation to how much you can make, to put towards your pension, specifically to *prevent* cops from doing what you said and walking away with 200k+ pensions.
(For purposes of this calculation, the inclusion of the average annual compensation for extra and special duty in the 3 years shall not exceed the average annual amount of compensation for extra and special duty paid to the member over the member's last 7 years of creditable service on or after July 1, 2009, as reported by the employer in accordance with RSA 100-A:16, VI, or over all of the years in his or her creditable service on or after July 1, 2009 if less than 7 years. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...-A/100-A-1.htm)

As far as the whole issue of cops rushing into a room where an active shooter is murdering children, well... yeah. I don't know. The vast majority of cops (especially small town cops) never fire their service weapon in the line of duty.

[schuss]

In NH, overtime & details DO count towards overall compensation and retirement, but theres a cap - a limitation to how much you can make, to put towards your pension, specifically to *prevent* cops from doing what you said and walking away with 200k+ pensions.
(For purposes of this calculation, the inclusion of the average annual compensation for extra and special duty in the 3 years shall not exceed the average annual amount of compensation for extra and special duty paid to the member over the member's last 7 years of creditable service on or after July 1, 2009, as reported by the employer in accordance with RSA 100-A:16, VI, or over all of the years in his or her creditable service on or after July 1, 2009 if less than 7 years. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...-A/100-A-1.htm)

As far as the whole issue of cops rushing into a room where an active shooter is murdering children, well... yeah. I don't know. The vast majority of cops (especially small town cops) never fire their service weapon in the line of duty.

Thanks, I knew there was some percentage. While I think police should protect and be prepared to put themselves in harms way - at the same time you can't rely on people defeating human nature for your plan to operate, as survival instinct is incredibly strong.
Again, this is why we need more checks on the system and more restrictions on guns, so the following can occur:
1. There is ample time to detect and monitor a risky individual - he could have theoretically bought the gun, drove to the school and pulled this off all in the same day. Requiring training and other checks will provide that barrier against impulse and give law enforcement and others chances to react to things like a sketchy individual in a training class.
2. By reducing the gun types available, you can reduce the damage/minute someone can cause, enabling both better interdiction (dude with bolt action is more easily chargeable or breachable than dude with semi auto AR) and more time in situation before many are dead. While inaction by police killed these kids, time also did.

[SumJongGuy]

Pictures show teachers & kids in other classrooms were evacuated by cops from multiple agencies. It doesn't appear to be a case of cops rushing in and only evacuating their own kids. Uvalde is only 75 miles from the border and border patrol is the nation's largest federal law enforcement agency, larger than the FBI, so the fact agents had kids in the school is not surprising and does not mean they only rescued their own kids.

I'll bet you 100$ that none of the cops or agents on the scene had kids of their own in the two classrooms where the massacre happened and was still happening. They only rescued kids from the other classrooms.. Ya, they got other kids too... but not from where the shooter was killing other peoples' kids.

They were out there 77 minutes. double my bet that the first thing they tried to figure out was where their own kids were at the time vs where the shooter was hold up..

[skiJ]

I was with you until the last sentence -

The police did not kill these children /
an 18year old determined to Be killed murder the children of Uvalde.

we can continue to sprout these claims, or we can deal with Facts -
I absolutely believe the officers have culpability - but at some point Very early on, they were ordered to stand-down. and I am certain law enforcement is (required ) to follow Orders.

What I now believe is tactical response must be tiered and tactical -
If you are going to rush an assault rifle, you have to be prepared for a lot of responders to get killed.

so it's got to be a tactical response
( as long as a classroom door is open, there are optional that are available. until the classroom door is closed and locked. )

all of this talk about armor -
bulletproof vests are not rifle-proof.
And If I was in law enforcement, my third investment would be body armor
( and I would submit it for reimbursement ).

Time is critical - and
making the correct decisions is more important.
Sometimes there are no good choices.

and if you have seven officers and an open door,
if that door is allowed to close-and-lock, expect everyone on the other side of that door will be killed.

law enforcement are trained not to become another casualty. Not to put themselves in harm's way.

the door(s) needed to be closed and locked, routine and Policy ;
the school needed to be on LOCK-DOWN with a shooter in the neighborhood.

Incident Command needed to be Outside, Not inside the school, ordering those trained for such situations to stand-down.


too many mistakes.

don't sell an18year old an assault rifle.


skiJ

[abraham]

law enforcement are trained not to become another casualty. Not to put themselves in harm's way.

Repeating this doesn't make it true. This is from the town's training documents for school shooter drills.

[MultiVerse]

I'll bet you 100$ that none of the cops or agents on the scene had kids of their own in the two classrooms where the massacre happened and was still happening. They only rescued kids from the other classrooms.. Ya, they got other kids too... but not from where the shooter was killing other peoples' kids.

They were out there 77 minutes. double my bet that the first thing they tried to figure out was where their own kids were at the time vs where the shooter was hold up..

Does the bet even matter if, as was discussed earlier in this thread, the feds and other police on scene in the school wanted to go in earlier? The decision not to go in was made by the inexperienced chief of the small Ulvalde school police department, not agents from other departments. The feds were heard yelling “What is your problem?” about the decision not go in.

Intrinsically, I have zero interest in either exonerating or excoriating the police. But you guys are astonishingly cynical if you attribute everything that happened to cowardice and self-interest, and won't consider some of what happened comes down to confusion, inexperience, and incompetence in the fog of war.

Because two cops from the Uvalde Police Department were shot through the locked classroom door in the first minutes of the shooting, the Ulvalde school police chief said shortly after he made the decision not to go in because he believed the shooter was a barricaded subject, not an active shooter. A risk averse school police chief who had no business running a major incident was in charge. I bet when the investigation findings come out most of the problems will be attributed to inexperienced command at the scene.

[skiJ]

abraham -

how very nice that you can access the training guidelines for school shooting Drills
( training materials for Drills does not equal Policy, does Not mean those were the Orders given at the scene. )

as I said, training for emergency services IS, do not become another casualty.
I am Not claiming that is Right, And it IS current basic training ( has been for more than 25years ).

You have pages 10 and (eleven) that you claim from training -
do you have the Alvarde Police manual (or handbook. or Policies. )
I have seen thirty years of training programs / it's not policy until it is written into Policy.

and you completely miss the point of my message in response to schuss -

the police did not kill the children.
an 18year old who wanted to be killed killed those children.

I am not excusing the police. And
you can go to the last sentence(s) of the two pages you offer, and those sentences support my point.
And once the officers were ordered to stand-down, the ones wearing the Uvalde badge had an order to follow.

Incident Command can pass to the Border Patrol.
it appears at some point it did.


police did not kill the children of Uvalde.

skiJ

[SumJongGuy]

Does the bet even matter if, as was described earlier in this thread, the feds and other police on scene in the school wanted to go in earlier? The decision not to go in was made by the inexperienced chief of the small Ulvalde school police department, not agents from other departments. The feds were heard yelling “What is your problem?” about the decision not go in.

Intrinsically, I have zero interest in either exonerating or excoriating the police. But you guys are astonishingly cynical if you attribute everything that happened to cowardice and self-interest, and won't consider some of what happened comes down to confusion, inexperience, and incompetence in the fog of war because two cops from the Uvalde Police Department were shot through the locked classroom door in the first minutes of the shooting.

The Ulvalde school police cheif said shortly after he made the decision not to go in because he believed the shooter was a barricaded subject, not an active shooter. A risk averse school police chief who had no business running a major incident was in charge. I bet when the investigation findings come out most of the problems will be attributed to inexperienced command at the scene.

This does appear to be the facts. Did the inexperienced chief ask any of the other local SWAT guys who'd just finished the training for their opinions or was it just the BP and other Feds/outside agency folks who were vocally critical of that horrifically terrible order to stand down??

Again, they seemed okie dokie with going around to the other areas of the school and getting those kids out. It was abundantly clear there were still kids alive in the two classrooms per the overheard 911 center instructions to that same chief and the local PD.

Throwing the chief under the bus seems like the only option here.... officially..

[MultiVerse]

- I don't know if he asked for input but cops on the scene gave him input nonetheless. They wanted to go in. Keep in mind the feds and everyone else are trained to follow the chain of command

- As I wrote earlier, I think the Ulvalde 'SWAT team' wasn't a real SWAT team. There was an absence of breaching equipment and trained officers up until the feds showed up. The feds breached the classroom with the help of a ballistic shield which absorbed the brunt of the shooters ambush

- Of course they were OK with going around to the other areas of the school and getting those kids out. You were the one arguing otherwise

- Part of the investigation will involve determining whether information about 911 calls coming from the classroom got passed along to the scene commander. It shouldn't surprise anyone to learn there were communication problems too

- I knew when I wrote ' command problems' you would jump to 'scapegoat' but in this case the commander himself explained why he made his decision. Police protocols for a barricaded subject are different than protocols for an active shooter. My guess is the scene commander believed he made the right call even after the incident was over

[Lone Star]

page 40 and nobodys saved the world yet? bummer! the biggest giggle i get is how some folks (look at you, PROZAC) who were almost persona non grata on the forum until this POLY ASSHAT discussion came up.

but in all seriousness, I am glad this can provide everyone some therapy. if posting in this thread isn't therapy, wth are you doing here? besides winning the internet, i mean.

[jfost]

Alvarde:Uvalde

Magazine:Clip

?!?

[dunfree]

page 40 and nobodys saved the world yet? bummer! the biggest giggle i get is how some folks (look at you, PROZAC) who were almost persona non grata on the forum until this POLY ASSHAT discussion came up.

but in all seriousness, I am glad this can provide everyone some therapy. if posting in this thread isn't therapy, wth are you doing here? besides winning the internet, i mean.

after 64 pages lone star grew enough balls to talk d-grade shit. Don’t you have toilets to tongue clean dick bag? Blah blah blah blah nobody is worthy of you blah blah blah blah

[frorider]

…

[Cono Este]

These fat fucks are not SEAL TEAM SiX. Let’s be real, it a small town with donut eating idiots. Just like around my town. No way these guys I see would have the balls to go in hard. They’d probably resign first.

Shit town was miles away from a bigger dept.

Cops shouldn’t be outgunned.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[mb6f50]

All this what the police chief did and didn't do and what he should have and shouldn't have done is stupid and its taking away from the real issue at hand.

America is ok with the leading cause of death of children being guns.

America likes guns more than they want to protect children from them.

Americans are more afraid the guvment might take their guns than they are of their children, grandchildren, neices and nephews, other children they know and love being shot..

[jfost]

All this what the police chief did and didn't do and what he should have and shouldn't have done is stupid and its taking away from the real issue at hand.

America is ok with the leading cause of death of children being guns.

America likes guns more than they want to protect children from them.

Americans are more afraid the guvment might take their guns than they are of their children, grandchildren, neices and nephews, other children they know and love being shot..

What if you truly believed that the 2A is your god-given birthright and shall not be infringed?

For the other team: what if you truly believe that the 2A is a crusty old relic that could have never foreseen where we are today?

[mb6f50]

What if you truly believed that the 2A is your god-given birthright and shall not be infringed?

For the other team: what if you truly believe that the 2A is a crusty old relic that could have never foreseen where we are today?

People need to compromise. They won't so babies will keep dying. Except fetuses. Fetuses have more rights to live than 10 year olds, apparently.

[Bobby Stainless]

America is ok with the leading cause of death of children being guns.

America likes guns more than they want to protect children from them.

Americans are more afraid the guvment might take their guns than they are of their children, grandchildren, neices and nephews, other children they know and love being shot..

83% of the "children" that are shot each year are 15-18. 86% of them are male.

15-18 year old males are not children.

This is a completely different issue than school shootings or accidental deaths. This issue has to deal with drug and gang activities in mostly urban areas and Black communities.

[schuss]

What if you truly believed that the 2A is your god-given birthright and shall not be infringed?

For the other team: what if you truly believe that the 2A is a crusty old relic that could have never foreseen where we are today?

1 is fine if you accept that interpretations can change. If you believe it to be fully true and cannot be restricted, you're just an idiot that doesn't know how laws and governments work over long stretches of time.
Since many will put me in the 2 camp - I think guns absolutely have a place. I grew up with them, tons of kids in my high school brought them to the parking lot as they hunted before school and there's a big sport shooting culture that exists. It's just been so twisted by the current version of the NRA and the gun fetishists that it's been drowned out. I think a right to a reasonable firearm isn't a bad thing. Also - of course they couldn't have foreseen it! Who in the 1700's could accurately predict the stuff we have today? No one.

[ex-powderbroker]

supreme court too scared to hand down their horrible “everyone deserves handguns” fuck you new york.

dumbasses

[::: :::]

1 is fine if you accept that interpretations can change. If you believe it to be fully true and cannot be restricted, you're just an idiot that doesn't know how laws and governments work over long stretches of time.
Since many will put me in the 2 camp - I think guns absolutely have a place. I grew up with them, tons of kids in my high school brought them to the parking lot as they hunted before school and there's a big sport shooting culture that exists. It's just been so twisted by the current version of the NRA and the gun fetishists that it's been drowned out. I think a right to a reasonable firearm isn't a bad thing. Also - of course they couldn't have foreseen it! Who in the 1700's could accurately predict the stuff we have today? No one.

We were a rural country of 4M when we started
We are a complicated society of 350M now

[schuss]

We were a rural country of 4M when we started
We are a complicated society of 350M now

Not to mention that guns took minutes to shoot multiple shots.