If only there was something we could do...

[Peruvian]

[skaredshtles]

tHoSe wErE AlL CrIsIs aCtOrS!!

[garyfromterrace]

....

[Harry]

Quoted for the mother fucking truth.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[riser4]

Quoted for the mother fucking truth.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Yes. Although I think it needs to be updated to graduating from high school or starting college. Either way, brutal truth.

[lowsparkco]

I was talking with a guy yesterday who owns a local gun shop. I was surprised he wasn’t over-the-top 2A crazy. Gave me some hope that a compromise can be made. We were reminiscing back when I first moved to Colorado immediately after Columbine ironically. I got into shooting trap targets and would go to local gun shows on the Front Range looking for competition shotguns. There would be hundreds of purchases facilitated with no background checks. We have made progress. Is it enough? No. But, I think we have to remember that governments that ban guns still have gun violence. No amount of regulation is going to stop it. There will always be gun smugglers and black market dealers. Doesn’t mean we can’t do better.

[Cisco Kid]

Banning guns will stop gun violence said no one ever. It is too bad that true sport shooters have to have their sport ruined by those taking their Right to Bear Arms and believing they also had The Right to Do Nothing about how their toys are misused.

My local gun shop owner got out of the business citing the attitude of his customers as one reason. A mag quit his gun business for the same reason.

[Ted Striker]

I think we have to remember that governments that ban guns still have gun violence.

Like Japan?

[lowsparkco]

Like Japan?

You think post-war Japan and the US make good nation state comparisons?

I was thinking more UK and Australia.

Yeah, the great thing about this discussion I had with this gun shop owner was that I knew we would have different opinions, but both of us approached the discussion with the respect it deserves. Nobody said anything absolutely fucking ridiculous and insulting like we should make America like Japan. We only need about three thousand years to reprogram.

[Ted Striker]

I'll admit that was a bit of an easy troll, but how the fuck did I insult you? You stated that "governments that ban guns still have gun violence" implying that gun violence doesn't correlate with access, yet within first world nations it absolutely does. Japan has almost no guns, and almost no gun violence. UK is next. European countries, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, have more restrictions on access and fewer shooting deaths than the US. From a numbers standpoint it's irrefutable.

I agree that we can't un-ring a bell, and that we won't solve anything by digging our respective heels in. But at least admit we are a major outlier among "civilized" nations.

[lowsparkco]

I'll admit that was a bit of an easy troll, but how the fuck did I insult you? You stated that "governments that ban guns still have gun violence" implying that gun violence doesn't correlate with access, yet within first world nations it absolutely does. Japan has almost no guns, and almost no gun violence. UK is next. European countries, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, have more restrictions on access and fewer shooting deaths than the US. From a numbers standpoint it's irrefutable.

I agree that we can't un-ring a bell, and that we won't solve anything by digging our respective heels in. But at least admit we are a major outlier among "civilized" nations.

Trolling is insulting. Some get it, some don’t.

We are certainly an outlier when it comes to gun violence. But, in what area aren’t we outliers?

I spent a lot of my 20’s and 30’s traveling and living in other countries. Dimwits always propose easy answers to America’s problems. We’re generally a very unique country. The geography, cultural makeup, size, wealth, history, political system, and current political culture - each very unique.

I didn’t say that access doesn’t correlate to an increase in gun violence. What I was really inferring is that bans on firearms don’t result in an absence of firearms. The idea that only law abiding citizens respect the ban has proved true in other countries.

I think we’re most likely to agree on your one comment, we’re not going to agree by digging our heels in. That’s really my point. Quit pissing off the other side insisting having it all your way, take the compromises and chip away. It’s basically the only way it works.

Also, accepting that some incidents of gun violence are unavoidable. It’s sad, absolutely heartbreaking. But every gun owner isn’t responsible for when someone loses their mind and commits the unthinkable.

[Cisco Kid]

Cool. Let's start by making assault weapons, the gun choice for lunatics, much harder to acquire, keep and use. Get your jollies at the range. Kill your pigs with something else like grandpa did. But the gun side won't accept that. Slippery slope and all. So here we are.

[lowsparkco]

Cool. Let's start by making assault weapons, the gun choice for lunatics, much harder to acquire, keep and use. Get your jollies at the range. Kill your pigs with something else like grandpa did. But the gun side won't accept that. Slippery slope and all. So here we are.

I can understand your logic, but does it really hold up? If you couldn’t get your hands on an AR-15 would you then likely not commit the crime? Realistically, I don’t see all rifles going away. Potentially mag limits have garnered support at times. Clinton Era there was a 10 round magazine limit on hand guns. Assault rifles aren’t really a “type of gun” they’re just rifles created for combat. I don’t think they’re appropriate for civilians. But, I also agree with you that becomes the “slippery slope.” It would be pretty rad for an organization of reasonable gun owners to start lobbying for changes. I’ve never shot an AR despite many of my friends owning them, but I did once shoot a Vietnam era M16 converted to .22 caliber at a range. It was eerily accurate and easy to fire.

[Cisco Kid]

I'm all for the slippery slope. Step 2. Make having a loaded gun in a car illegal. Road rage killings drops by 50% is my guess. Gangsters will still be gangsters shooting each other.

[lowsparkco]

I'm all for the slippery slope. Step 2. Make having a loaded gun in a car illegal. Road rage killings drops by 50% is my guess. Gangsters will still be gangsters shooting each other.

It’s illegal in Oregon (ammo must be locked separately i.e. glove compartment or trunk). Which is a good law IMO. Although I think it’s allowed if you have a concealed carry. Conventional wisdom among gun owners is to get a concealed carry just to have a bigger bundle of rights if you’re pulled over. Female was apprehended earlier today (10:30 in the fucking morning) brandishing a firearm in a road rage incident in Bend. Fucking scary.

[SumJongGuy]

It’s illegal in Oregon (ammo must be locked separately i.e. glove compartment or trunk). Which is a good law IMO. Although I think it’s allowed if you have a concealed carry. Conventional wisdom among gun owners is to get a concealed carry just to have a bigger bundle of rights if you’re pulled over. Female was apprehended earlier today (10:30 in the fucking morning) brandishing a firearm in a road rage incident in Bend. Fucking scary.

Plus when your gun gets stolen out of your car you can just keep quiet about it and go buy another one. The permit allows you to buy them like candy.. And reporting it stolen out of your unlocked car puts your permit at risk so just STFU and by another gun amirite???

[::: :::]

But every gun owner isn’t responsible for when someone loses their mind and commits the unthinkable.

Not individually responsible for the individual violent encounter, sure.

But do gun owners as a group have a social/civic responsibility to acknowledge that firearms are in fact lethal? And subsequently that guns are a public health hazard? Especially the more they are purposely & progressively unregulated?

Do gun owners have a social/civic responsibility to acknowledge that individuals misuse guns? That that misuse isn’t an anomaly but a significant pattern? To not bury their heads in the sand by pretending that they personally are not irresponsible?

Do gun owners have a social/civic responsibility to use these acknowledgements to create appropriate policy to demilitarize public space? To not promote personal firearms as a solution to civic problems? To acknowledge that the rural experience of individual self-reliance doesn’t actually apply to modern life the way that it used to, even in many rural settings?

When will the group that collectively argues & votes (& threatens others with violence [ie molon labe, etc]) for increasingly absolute gun rights take ownership of the unimpeachable swath of very real & avoidable issues that accompany & surround that access?

[mcphee]

^well said. Thanks

[Peruvian]

Trolling is insulting. Some get it, some don’t.

We are certainly an outlier when it comes to gun violence. But, in what area aren’t we outliers?

I spent a lot of my 20’s and 30’s traveling and living in other countries. Dimwits always propose easy answers to America’s problems. We’re generally a very unique country. The geography, cultural makeup, size, wealth, history, political system, and current political culture - each very unique.

I didn’t say that access doesn’t correlate to an increase in gun violence. What I was really inferring is that bans on firearms don’t result in an absence of firearms. The idea that only law abiding citizens respect the ban has proved true in other countries.

I think we’re most likely to agree on your one comment, we’re not going to agree by digging our heels in. That’s really my point. Quit pissing off the other side insisting having it all your way, take the compromises and chip away. It’s basically the only way it works.

Also, accepting that some incidents of gun violence are unavoidable. It’s sad, absolutely heartbreaking. But every gun owner isn’t responsible for when someone loses their mind and commits the unthinkable.

As to gun violence, one absolute uniqueness of the USA is the number of guns and easy access to them. As a society we have to ask whether we are better off with more guns or fewer guns. We know that states in the US with higher percentage of gun ownership have higher rates of gun violence. Do more guns actually make us safer or put us in more danger? Once that question is answered, we can settle down and talk about how we want to move forward.

[k2skier112]

I can understand your logic, but does it really hold up? If you couldn’t get your hands on an AR-15 would you then likely not commit the crime?.

I've always found this logic lame. Any, ANY semiauto weapon, including handguns, need a special permit/license, gun registration and yearly training. Anyone that hunts know you have ONE shot at your target. Everything else is a miracle if it hits, unless it's severely wounded.

How many people can a bad guy get with a semiauto rifle vs a bolt action rifle?

No one gets anything "taken" away under my plan. You just have to prove/show you can be allowed to posses anything semiauto

[ex-powderbroker]

9 year old was just standing his ground.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...say-rcna100012

[SumJongGuy]

Keep the guns, ban the ammo. Everybody gets ONE bullet. If you're in real danger use and prove it was necessary to get another bullet.

You can blast away all you want at the range or legit hunting property.. But driving around or sitting at home.. ONE BULLET.

[riser4]

That doesn't address a good portion of the statistics which don't involve mass shootings and often involve self murder.

[SumJongGuy]

That doesn't address a good portion of the statistics which don't involve mass shootings and often involve self murder.

If your child uses your bullet to off themselves you rot in jail for life and definitely don't get another bullet. Same if your bullet gets stolen and used in a crime. I don't really have an opinion on adult suicide as long as they don't take out anybody else with them.. It's sad and unfortunate.. But, that really is something we can't stop people from doing when they're hell bent on it. Keep them close especially if you know the are struggling.. but if they do it it's not our fault.. it's the disease..

If I've got full blown ALS or dementia, please just let me go..

[Ted Striker]

Some get it, some don’t.

Dimwits always propose easy answers to America’s problems.

Yet I'm the one insulting people?

What I was really inferring is that bans on firearms don’t result in an absence of firearms. The idea that only law abiding citizens respect the ban has proved true in other countries.

Australia by the numbers tells a different story. The government bought roughly 650k guns from the public, and enacted restrictions of the types of firearms the public could legally own. So if all that accomplished was taking firearms away from law abiding citizens, gun crime would've remained relatively unchanged.



But instead it plummeted. Because as has been said ad nauseam in this thread, everyone is a good guy with a gun until they aren't.

Of course the gun lobby says that gun homicide was trending down anyway, so it was all just a waste of money, but that's inconsistent with the state by state numbers that indicate the states with the highest participation had the greatest reduction.