I blame the Louisiana Governor

[powder11]

yeah, those facts suck. especially when you can't dispute them.

my comment has nothing to do with who can google search the best article to spew their party line. you drank the cool aid. If I want your opinion, I'll watch fox news.

[CUBUCK]

my comment has nothing to do with who can google search the best article to spew their party line. you drank the cool aid. If I want your opinion, I'll watch fox news.

Cool aid? These were facts reported by the Washington Post not Fox news. Why give him a hard time for actually doing some research. If you want to attack the research fine but attacking the messenger doesn't prove your point

[dbp]

A little late, but the FEMA chief has now been removed from his role managing the hurricane relief efforts.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168915,00.html

[powder11]

Cool aid? These were facts reported by the Washington Post not Fox news. Why give him a hard time for actually doing some research. If you want to attack the research fine but attacking the messenger doesn't prove your point

my point is that the messenger propagates neo-con theory 24/7 and is incapable of independent thoughts other than what his party line dictates to him. his "research" is a basic google search of newspaper articles aka "facts" Im not on the debate team trying to prove a point. the only fact I have is I think that dude is a brainwashed mofo, thats all.

[mr_gyptian]

my comment has nothing to do with who can google search the best article to spew their party line. you drank the cool aid. If I want your opinion, I'll watch fox news.

keep back pedaling. Louisiana had every chance to mitigate this disaster and didn't. It's going to be tough to swallow, but as the layers keep getting pulled back you'll see that this state's abject disregard for good governance cost thousands of people their lives.

That levee system has been around for almost 100 years. whomever is responsible for the upkeep should answer for why this happened. if 1.9 billion dollars over the past five years wasn't enough, why wasn't it enough?

[grrrr]

"Brown is a Republican lawyer who is a longtime friend of former FEMA chief Joe Allbaugh, who himself took over after serving as President George W. Bush's campaign manager in 2000. Brown's only previous emergency experience was as an assistant city manager in the 1970s in Edmond, Okla., whose population in 2000 was 68,315, overseeing emergency services."

"In fact, according to Claudia Deakins, head of public relations for the city of Edmond, Brown was an "assistant to the city manager" from 1977 to 1980, not a manager himself, and had no authority over other employees. "The assistant is more like an intern," she told TIME. "Department heads did not report to him." Brown did do a good job at his humble position, however, according to his boss. "Yes. Mike Brown worked for me. He was my administrative assistant. He was a student at Central State University," recalls former city manager Bill Dashner. "Mike used to handle a lot of details. Every now and again I'd ask him to write me a speech. He was very loyal. He was always on time. He always had on a suit and a starched white shirt."

This stuff may be coming as a surprise to the public, but it is no surprise to those of us who work with emergency management. The Fed administration a) used trrorism funding as a political tool, even while knowing they were throwing money away uselessly, b) gambled on getting through ths term without a mjor disaster, and c) used the agency as a dumping ground for incompetant political supporters.

[iceman]

That levee system has been around for almost 100 years. whomever is responsible for the upkeep should answer for why this happened. if 1.9 billion dollars over the past five years wasn't enough, why wasn't it enough?

And who exactly is responsible for that upkeep, Mr._G, and for whom do they work? Who, shall we say, is their Commander in Chief?

Don't piss on our heads and tell us it's raining.

[iceman]

" "Mike...was very loyal. He was always on time. He always had on a suit and a starched white shirt."

AND HE WORE A HAT
AND HE HAD A JOB
AND HE BROUGHT HOME THE BACON
SO THAT NO ONE KNEW

[CUBUCK]

And who exactly is responsible for that upkeep, Mr._G, and for whom do they work? Who, shall we say, is their Commander in Chief?

Don't piss on our heads and tell us it's raining.

Reading the Washington Post article above it looks like the money was there but the state chose and Corps of engineers approved less important pork projects rather then build up and strengthen the levees. I'm sure if the state has chose to use those funds for levee construction the army corp would also have approved.

[cj001f]

Reading the Washington Post article above it looks like the money was there but the state chose and Corps of engineers approved less important pork projects rather then build up and strengthen the levees. I'm sure if the state has chose to use those funds for levee construction the army corp would also have approved.

Ummm, that's not quite how the Army Corps works.

[iceman]

The state doesn't tell the Corps what to do, bucko.

Really it's irrelevant anyway. Most likely the levees would have broken regardless of who sat in the oval office. The issue is the Federal response, and what factors (i.e. incompetence, diorganization, willful misconduct, what have you) have influenced that response or lack thereof.

BTW - did you see what Whitman said yesterday? Fucking hilarious.

[CUBUCK]

Apologize,

Maybe I phrased it incorrectly. The state took in almost two billion in Corps civil work projects. Rather than pushing for these projects of lesser importance, LA congressmen could have lobbied for levee reconstruction etc. They have proven they can get the money for pork projects why not for something actually worthwhile like improving the levees.

If this isn't right please let me know what I am missing, don't just tell me I'm wrong.

[iceman]

As you said, the Louisiana delegation has been quite successful in getting money allocated to the Corps for projects in Louisiana. But money that is earmarked for the Corps is tied directly to specific projects. Money requested for levee improvement in the most recent budget was approx. $105MM, money allocated for levee improvement was a fraction of that, less than $40MM I believe, although I don't have the numbers handy.

The Corps loves locks and dams, draining swamps for navigation and/or development and anything else that is directly involved with commerce. The corps also lobbies congress heavily, seeking money for its pet projects. Building the wall higher to keep the folks in the lower ninth ward dry was not a priority for tthe Corps, nor for Congress. Of course the Louisiana delegation is part of
Congress, but they by themselves had no authority to allocate dollars in any specific way.

[Core Shot]

AND HE WORE A HAT
AND HE HAD A JOB
AND HE BROUGHT HOME THE BACON
SO THAT NO ONE KNEW

HE WAS A MONGOLOID
HE WAS A MONGOLOID
HAPPIER THAN YOU AND ME

HE WAS A MONGOLOID
HE WAS A MONGOLOID
ONE CHROMASOME TO MANY!!

[mr_gyptian]

As you said, the Louisiana delegation has been quite successful in getting money allocated to the Corps for projects in Louisiana. But money that is earmarked for the Corps is tied directly to specific projects. Money requested for levee improvement in the most recent budget was approx. $105MM, money allocated for levee improvement was a fraction of that, less than $40MM I believe, although I don't have the numbers handy.

The Corps loves locks and dams, draining swamps for navigation and/or development and anything else that is directly involved with commerce. The corps also lobbies congress heavily, seeking money for its pet projects. Building the wall higher to keep the folks in the lower ninth ward dry was not a priority for tthe Corps, nor for Congress. Of course the Louisiana delegation is part of
Congress, but they by themselves had no authority to allocate dollars in any specific way.

who, pray tell, lobbies the Federal House Reps and Senators for these projects Ice? these reps are the ones that are putting this pork/shit into highway/energy/appropriations bills. Do you think Ted Stevens is going to divert monies from AK to LA and slip it into some bill?

You are right, Bobby Jindal et. al are not directly responsible to directing what the Corps. does. However the local reps at all levels are lobbying their federal reps to get the monies allocated for specific projects. projects obviously more important than having a levee that is strong enough to withstand a class 5 storm. which is a good gamble, it's not like any had come close in the past.

[cj001f]

However the local reps at all levels are lobbying their federal reps to get the monies allocated for specific projects. projects obviously more important than having a levee that is strong enough to withstand a class 5 storm. which is a good gamble, it's not like any had come close in the past.

It's much easier to get funding for new work than maintaining existing infrastructure. The corps is geared towards new construction, congress is, it's where the money is.

[grrrr]

who, pray tell, lobbies the Federal House Reps and Senators for these projects Ice?

So would you characterize the "right-wing" position as pro-pork?

[Adolf Allerbush]

obviously more important than having a levee that is strong enough to withstand a class 5 storm....

Right, and without that levee breaking he wouldn't have gotten this killer fishing in:

[Core Shot]

Right, and without that levee breaking he wouldn't have gotten this killer fishing in:

2 drops

POTW

[mattitude]

These threads and discussions have mostly annoyed me because of the partisan rhetoric but someone sent me this article and I thought it was an interesting angle. I am sure the question of how fast the federal ,state and local government reacted will be investigated and debated for a long time to come. This is less about reaction and more about root cause of behavior during the crisis. Now fixing that will be the real challenge.

Comes from here: http://www.intellectualactivist.com/

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

An Objectivist Review

by Robert Tracinski | The Intellectual Activist

September 2, 2005



It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency--indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story:

"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.

"The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....

"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders.

"'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.' "

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.


Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005

Copyright© 2002 The Intellectual Activist

[cj001f]

These threads and discussions have mostly annoyed me because of the partisan rhetoric but someone sent me this article and I thought it was an interesting angle. I am sure the question of how fast the federal ,state and local government reacted will be investigated and debated for a long time to come. This is less about reaction and more about root cause of behavior during the crisis. Now fixing that will be the real challenge.

Like we haven't seen that bit of libertarian pseudo-intellectual onanism before

[slim]

I Hate the Poor: We should have let them drown

An Objectivist Review

by Robert Tracinski | The Intellectual Activist

September 2, 2005

There I fixed the title to make it a bit more reflective of the content of the article.

[mr_gyptian]

So would you characterize the "right-wing" position as pro-pork?

no I wouldn't characterize the right-wing position as pro-pork. But having such luminaries as Ted Steven's and Trent Lott on that side of the aisle, it's hard to say it's not.

that and non military government spending is at levels exceeding (throwing up in my mouth) LBJ's "Great Society".

[Grange]

These threads and discussions have mostly annoyed me because of the partisan rhetoric but someone sent me this article and I thought it was an interesting angle. I am sure the question of how fast the federal ,state and local government reacted will be investigated and debated for a long time to come. This is less about reaction and more about root cause of behavior during the crisis. Now fixing that will be the real challenge.

Comes from here: http://www.intellectualactivist.com/

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

An Objectivist Review

by Robert Tracinski | The Intellectual Activist

September 2, 2005





...two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites?

Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005

Copyright© 2002 The Intellectual Activist

I had a long response but decided to delete it and leave you with a tip. You usually get white sheets cheap by talking to the cleaning staff of a hotel.

[grrrr]

no I wouldn't characterize the right-wing position as pro-pork. But having such luminaries as Ted Steven's and Trent Lott on that side of the aisle, it's hard to say it's not.

that and non military government spending is at levels exceeding (throwing up in my mouth) LBJ's "Great Society".

That may be the first post of yours that I agree with.