A Question for the avid backcountry traveler guide or pro

**wicked_sick** · 09-02-2005, 02:12 AM

How did you get into backcountry skiing our boarding and how did you learn the necessary safety skills? (avy and rescue knowledge, transceiver/probe skills, risk assessment, etc.)

What words of wisdom have you got for a Jongerated gaper like me who lives in a honeypot of backcountry and is seeking to get out there?

I've got a healthy fear of unstable snowpacks as well as being stranded in a crisis situation with gaper comrades. i at least want to know I can rely on myself so I'm taking it upon myself to attend a recreational avy course (and lots of practice sessions with the transceiver/probe and touring with experienced guys) Depending on how that goes, I may take the CAA's level 1 pro avy course, and a wilderness first aid course before i venture too far out there w/o a knowledgable posse.

I may not be able to afford to eat or drink beer for awhile, but the turns and knowledge will be worth it.

How'd you learn it?

**Arno** · 09-02-2005, 02:38 AM

I think you answered your own question there. Sounds like you're taking the right steps.

Another thing is just to watch closely what avalanche activity there is in your local area as the winter develops. Local knowledge is a big help (although it can also lead to over-confidence too).

Prolly also worth seeking out some of the avy books out there. I like Bruce Tremper's "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain" and a new one called "Powderguide" (can't remember the authors - Google it). Tremper's is quite hard work but is definitely worth reading and re-reading. Powderguide concentrates more on translating all your knowledge into actually making the decision as to whether to go or not.

Good luck

**sarge1957** · 09-03-2005, 01:28 AM

After you learn rescue basics, and simple snowpack evaluation, really concentrate on learning how to evaluate terrain. At any level of experience, if you want to be out there a lot, you have to learn to balance the risk of the route you take, with what YOU know about the snowpack that day.

That's basically what we are doing even on a TGR shoot. Constantly matching what we know about with the pack, with what terrain is suitable under those conditions.

As you get more experience, you will better be able to assess the snowpack, and when conditions are right, enter more radical terrain. Be patient, it takes years. Otherwise evrything you have planned is on the money. Canada has the best avi training in the world, so take advantage of it. Pressure you bro's to learn more too. At least on rescue.

Good Luck.

**Trackhead** · 09-03-2005, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by sarge1957

That's basically what we are doing even on a TGR shoot. Constantly matching what we know about with the pack, with what terrain is suitable under those conditions.

Good Luck.

What happened in Soul Purpose then?

Be sure to take your time applying your new found 'book smarts' to real, on scene situations. Always make your judgements based on a very conservative approach. Always discuss your thoughts and concerns with your partners. Don't let a bluebird pow day excitement get the best of your judgement. When your out in a big group, don't get lured into the sense of safety.

Just some thoughts. Have fun this season and get out as much as possible.

**sarge1957** · 09-03-2005, 11:37 PM

Good question.

What happened on Soul Purpose is that the boy's learned a lesson the hard way. The guide they had on that trip (I was injured) was new to guiding film crews and was probably a little overwhelmed with the pressures ( no criticism implied here at all). Not an uncommon thing with film projects. Pretty standard hueristic trap. In retrospect, and considering they were lucky and no one was hurt, it made my job easier in the future. Some of my best lessons were from my mistakes, and if your out there enough, you will make a mistake or run into some bad luck every now and then.

But it's great advice to be aware of the human factors that affect decision making in the backcountry. Now that you got me thinking of it, it's a big part of my job with the crew to make sure we avoid those pitfalls.

Also on Soul Purpose, the only 'big' mistake I saw was stepping up to an 800 vert run after having activity on 400 foot runs. I'm not making light of what happened there, but with pro athletes a 400 face can be low risk terrain (sans terrain traps of course). This definitely rates as a don't try this at home scenario though. To see what impact it had on them personally see the debrief on the Soul Purpose DVD extra or check out the Untracked segment on that trip. The boys took there lumps on that trip, admitted it, and learned from it.

**Trackhead** · 09-04-2005, 08:37 PM

Sarge,

Thanks for the reply. I watched the extra footage, it was good they included that.

The thing I found interesting is that it looked like every slide occured on the same aspect, same slope scenario. Like the first person kicked of the slab, then the other two appeared to go down the same ridge/same aspect with the same (bigger) results. Maybe it didn't happen that way, just looked like all the slides in that segment were on the same aspect, ridge, etc.

I agree that skiers at the level of those in TGR are certainly able to handle a situation of skiing of a slab better than the average BC skier. That is one advantage they have. But I imagine filming pressure, etc, could lure them into a false sense of security.

Everyone makes mistakes. I skied 90+ bc days last year and made two mistakes that ended up in sizeable slab avalanches with no consequences. Luckily.

**Mex** · 09-05-2005, 05:32 PM

WS if you're near Calgary or Vancouver, there has been an avalanche awareness seminars for the past few years put on my Kokanee I think. Some of the presenters were pretty heavy with technical calculations, but others gave some good ideas on how to evaluate and what to be thinking about as soon as you start planning your trip. Just another resource to add to what you already mentioned.

**powndnstein** · 09-06-2005, 11:33 AM

WS, in answer to your questions love of powder skiing is what got me into the bc. First on tele gear and later on AT since I am a better alpine skier than i am a telemarker. I would recommend both as tele will enhance your alpine abilities. If avy courses are available as everyone here recommends attend them if they aren"t patrolers are a great source of information first hand, and they usually don't mind passing on their knowledge if you catch them at the right moments. Reading books with pertinent info will build your knowledge as well.
The one thing that I would recommend to newcomers is a healthy dose of common sense and a true understanding of what it is to be humble. I feel that these two qualities go a long way in making it back from every excursion into the bc.
the nature of the endeavor is visible all around you on the way up and evaluating the conditions is not rocket science, it is all about awareness, which will increase with each experience. Being humble means if nature is showing her hand in the place you want to ski it is best to respect it. This can be as simple as forfeiting first tracks in a bowl and skiing a more safe aspect of the mountain to flat out getting skunked and having to wait for a better time. Trust your own intuitions, know yourself and trust yourself, and as they say in the BS manual be prepared.

**The Reverend Floater** · 10-06-2005, 10:11 AM

Pinner and I had this conversation once at Silverton. Classes and the like are excellent foundations are absolutely requisite. But absolutely nothing can replace pure experience. After taking class(es), tour with someone who has b/c experience--i.e. someone who's toured for several years and has seen the metamorphisis of a snowpack over a few winters and the like. In my humble opinion, this is just as valuable as any class.

**Cornholio** · 10-06-2005, 11:28 AM

This thread has turned in to two pretty interesting discussions.

As for getting in to BC stuff, you'll need a little help from your friends. If you're lucky, you already have some friends who will take you out. Listen to them. Ask questions.

If they're hesitant to take you because you're a rookie, I'd guess that these are just the type of people you want to be BC with. They are, in fact, trusting their lives to you just like you're trusting your life to them. So, the trick is just not to bite off too much too soon.

Read a lot, and enjoy the learning!

**Pinner** · 10-06-2005, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater

Pinner and I had this conversation once at Silverton.

And then afterwards, Rev asked me if I wanted to make out on the chairlift with him.

He was all, "I can teach you things..." and I was like, "Dude. You're SICK!"

**yesIsaidyes** · 10-06-2005, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by wicked_sick

I may not be able to afford to eat or drink beer for awhile

you can eat beer? why didn't anyone tell me!

**nesta** · 10-07-2005, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by yesIsaidyes

you can eat beer? why didn't anyone tell me!

Guinness is pretty close to chewable. I'm sure there's others.

**shirk** · 10-10-2005, 09:20 PM

WS I am in the same situation this winter. Learning the BC dance, only I don't have the gaper crew. I am moving from the east out to Vancouver/Whistler on my own this winter.

My game plan:
Acquire the gear, beacon, shovel, probe et all.

Read the books, and then take the recreational avie course. Good to have some knowledge going into the course. Step it up to the next course up later in the season.

Find a non gaper experienced crew to roll with. This may be the hard part. Hoping the maggots can help with this.

Practice practice practice, get out and ski as many days as possible to gain experience.

**criscam** · 10-11-2005, 07:47 AM

ditto shirk. first season in utah. half-way there on acquiring gear, not even close on acquiring the knowledge. at the very least i hope to take some avi classes, practice w/ my beacon, and skins, and hope to maybe get out in the spring. if not, i should be a little more wise come next year.

**Ireallyliketoski2** · 10-13-2005, 04:35 PM

Beware that the most experienced don't necessarily make the best teachers, a good teacher could be someone with minimal experience but a real gift for taking the time to explain things.

I found that on days when I went out into the backcountry by myself and studied snow and terrain by myself I learned the most. Of course I would never actually venturing into avalanche terrain solo. The group mentality can sway you, as an inexperienced person, into doing something that you might feel uncomfortable doing. You might be hesitant to speak up and assume that they must know what they are doing. They might not, look at the people who get caught in slides they tend to be highly experienced people, as experience can lead to complacancy. Do not overestimate the power of the group mentality on an inexperienced JONG.

**criscam** · 10-14-2005, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Ireallyliketoski

Beware that the most experienced don't necessarily make the best teachers, a good teacher could be someone with minimal experience but a real gift for taking the time to explain things.

I found that on days when I went out into the backcountry by myself and studied snow and terrain by myself I learned the most. Of course I would never actually venturing into avalanche terrain solo. The group mentality can sway you, as an inexperienced person, into doing something that you might feel uncomfortable doing. You might be hesitant to speak up and assume that they must know what they are doing. They might not, look at the people who get caught in slides they tend to be highly experienced people, as experience can lead to complacancy. Do not overestimate the power of the group mentality on an inexperienced JONG.

very good point.

**addict** · 10-15-2005, 01:18 PM

WS, where are you BC skiing? Some areas the search and rescue crews will let you sit in on BC talks/classes. I've also met up with a few of the S&R guys while in the Whitwater BC and skiied some lines with them while they were teaching their newbies and they seemed pretty well versed and happy to impart knowledge to stangers as well. Otherwise, yeah, find someone with some knowledge that doesn't mind teaching you and learn that way. I've never done a course so I can't comment on them, but I'd consider myself fairly knowledgable from learnig off others, reading (Tony Daffern's book is good) and observing. I totally agree that knowing terrain is probably THE most important preventative factor. Obviously it needs to be comined with all the other knowledge, but theoretically some terrain will never slide (yeah I know, some terrain is dead flat too). If you go out regularly and observe the snowpack and wind, and be aware of terrain, you should have a safe BC career. Enjoy.

**IHeartWhistler** · 10-19-2005, 07:56 AM

Shirk, I'm in just about the same boat as you. I've grown up in Vancouver and have been skiing Whistler/Blackcomb for years, but have never had the time or money to get the gear to get into the backcountry. Last year I took an excellent avi course with a school called: Canada West Mountain School. I had a great instructor who also worked for the Canadian Avalanche Association helping with avy bulletins.

Another question to throw out to people in the Vancouver/Whistler area. Is there anyone out there that is involved with the Alpine Club of Canada (ACC)? How are they as a group to learn from? Are the people there generally safe/experienced? I guess what I'm asking is, if I don't know many other people who are interested in getting into the backcountry, is that a good group to join?

**seatosky** · 10-19-2005, 11:10 AM

Hey IHeartWhistler,

I'm also in the same boat - live in Vancouver, and looking to get into the BC this season. Obviously 1st priority is to get into an avy course - I've looked at Canada West and also www.whistlerguides.com - both look decent. Was the course you took an all-weekend thing? Where do they take you on the field days?

**IHeartWhistler** · 10-20-2005, 02:49 AM

The course I took had two (or maybe 3?) lecture days in the evenings before going on a field day. You learn a bunch of stuff about hazard awareness from pictures and case studies.

Then the two days in the field for us were both up at Whistler (we had planned one of the days to be on Blackcomb, but there were lift problems on that day...). I did the course very early in the season when Harmony was still out of bounds, so that's where we did most of our pit digging and awareness. It worked out really well because there had been a few good snowfalls just before the class, and there were very good distinctions between layers.

Among the two field days we also spent quite a lot of time doing transceiver searches. At first it was just the simple, "learn how to find a transceiver...". So we'd just buddy up, have one guy hide the transceiver, the other guy look for it. Then once we got a hang of the basic operation of these things (I think we used the SOS F1-ND transceivers), we moved onto more sophisticated scenarios with multiple burrials.

As our last lesson, the guide went ahead of us down the slope behind some trees, hid a bunch of transceivers in a fairly large area (but his bag down with them for something to probe for), then started screaming for help. He did an awesome job of the whole thing, making it a scenario in which we had come across another group of BC skiiers. The scenario was that this other group had been hit by an avalanche (4 people), 2 had transceivers and both were burried, a third was also burried, then the fourth guy was fine but hysterical (he really acted it out). So, we came upon them and had to take control of the situation. So, we had multiple burrials, we had to probe for someone without a beacon, and we had to work as a team to do the whole scenario.

I thought it was an excellent course, and since I didn't get much practice last year, I may take it again, or do a smaller refresher course this year.

**powderdave** · 10-20-2005, 05:25 PM

Lots of sage advice and good stories on this post. It can seem overwhelming initially, and thats good because fear will keep you alive. However, its pretty simple to be out there, skiing and gaining experience, without risking it all.

1. Go slow. Do not strike out for the gnar for a few seasons. That's right, seasons. You're probably fairly young, you've got decades of backcountry wandering ahead of you. Hit the resorts or find avy-savvy mates with experience if you wanna hit the steep and deep.

2. Terrain, terrain, terrain. Long before you ever know your way around a data pit, long before you know about sintering, you've been able to look around and recognize trees, ridges, bowls, etc. You can know nothing at all about snow science but be an expert in terrain selection and have a safe day touring. You won't be safe on the steep stuff but you can stick to low angle slopes and have a blast. That's not "cool" but its a start. Number two is essentially the same as number one. Learn how to approach safely (ridges, trees), learn slope angles (less than 30 degrees), and you'll have a lot of safe fun. All this while learning the finer points without sticking your neck out.

3. Practice, practice, practice. At the risk of delaying your buddies, do a beacon drill before going out. Or perhaps while taking a break after slogging. Whatever, just practice. And dig lots of pits. Your findings only become meaningful when you compare them against the pits you've dug in the past.

4. Lastly, ask questions. Pester the folks with lots of experience. You see above how willing Sarge is to share his insights, and almost nobody you'll meet has more experience. Most avy pros will welcome your interest. After all, they have devoted their lives to this stuff.

Good luck. It is possible to ski the backcountry on pretty hazardous days if you choose your terrain wisely and don't push the slope angles. So, learn terrain selection and you'll get out safely while accumulating experience.

**seatosky** · 10-20-2005, 05:37 PM

Great info Dave. I'm finding this whole forum very educational - a lot of the stories are pretty sobering.

**LeeLau** · 10-21-2005, 06:45 PM

Vancouver types. I'm moderately experienced. NOTE the words MODERATE. I'm willing to pass on the good karma I had from more experienced people. I'd be much much more inclined to be patient in early season then later in the year when, hopefully, there's a shitload of powder. From time to time if there's some snow locally Id be happy to take a group out to Hollyburn or Seymour or whatever. There's all sorts of people to hook up with and lots of groups going out. The ACC is not very active unfortunately. Telemarktips has a pretty active set of Vancouver types.

During winter I live in both Vancouver and Whistler. Happy to take a group out to someplace nice and safe in whistler bc to get their feet wet too. I'm self-employed so can take time off as necessary.