The TGR Skinny Ski Ski Tourers' Refuge Thread

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Tailwind, I've toured on all sorts of setups from K2 Fours with Trekkers, to near-rando Trabs to OG Cochises. Based on where I ski these days I've give up on skinny skis for the exact reason you stated. For long days I use Zero G 105's. They're a bit heavier than your K2's, but they handle too-hot spring snow so much better than a skinnier ski. And frankly I just prefer a longer radius than you can find on most skinny skis. I sold my Zero G 85's because I too often regretted bringing them when snow got manky at the end of a long day.

Now, if I skied on a lot of volcanoes or anywhere that requires long periods of sidehilling and kickturns, I'd still have a skinner ski in the quiver because that is when their efficiency really gets amplified. Another factor is how quickly corn or spring pow turns into slop. In some ranges perfect corn can last many hours. In Colorado the sun tends to kills corn fast. And If the top of your line is perfect, the bottom is often way past its prime. I also infrequently ski places that involve long stretches of steep skinning these days, because most mountains near me just aren't shaped that way. When I was on the East Coast (where the corn often lasts all day) I always had a skinny touring ski, and I still keep a pair in the Dolomites (where I have family, and where skinning up lower angle couloirs common). I'd say it's all about making tradeoffs that fit your goals and location.

Whether or not you can ski fast and in control with ultralight boots is more of a skill issue. It takes time to adjust your skiing style, and you need to be pretty decent at skiing to be able to stay centered while being bounced around without a big stiff boot to help you out. If you keep at it your body figures it out. Fit is extremely important (sound like you're having issues with this), and a wider ski in sloppy snow helps a lot. Ultralight boots with a huge range of motion and minimalist bindings can be great even with wider skis.

[CirqueScaler]

Totally agree with the three points: (1) you give up DH performance as you gain UH performance, (2) tech can narrow the tradeoff, but (3) there is room to improve by skiing more bad snow on light gear.

Of the boots you've listed, the TLT 8 is the outlier. It's very high volume whereas the Alien RS, F1 LT, and Backland Carbon are low volume. You might also consider trying the La Sportiva Skorpius which is a bit heavier (1200-1300 g) but purportedly a big step up in ski performance. It is also a very low volume boot.

[Lindahl]

Tailwind, I've toured on all sorts of setups from K2 Fours with Trekkers, to near-rando Trabs to OG Cochises. Based on where I ski these days I've give up on skinny skis for the exact reason you stated. For long days I use Zero G 105's. They're a bit heavier than your K2's, but they handle too-hot spring snow so much better than a skinnier ski. And frankly I just prefer a longer radius than you can find on most skinny skis. I sold my Zero G 85's because I too often regretted bringing them when snow got manky at the end of a long day.

Now, if I skied on a lot of volcanoes or anywhere that requires long periods of sidehilling and kickturns, I'd still have a skinner ski in the quiver because that is when their efficiency really gets amplified. Another factor is how quickly corn or spring pow turns into slop. In some ranges perfect corn can last many hours. In Colorado the sun tends to kills corn fast. And If the top of your line is perfect, the bottom is often way past its prime. I also infrequently ski places that involve long stretches of steep skinning these days, because most mountains near me just aren't shaped that way. When I was on the East Coast (where the corn often lasts all day) I always had a skinny touring ski, and I still keep a pair in the Dolomites (where I have family, and where skinning up lower angle couloirs common). I'd say it's all about making tradeoffs that fit your goals and location.

Whether or not you can ski fast and in control with ultralight boots is more of a skill issue. It takes time to adjust your skiing style, and you need to be pretty decent at skiing to be able to stay centered while being bounced around without a big stiff boot to help you out. If you keep at it your body figures it out. Fit is extremely important (sound like you're having issues with this), and a wider ski in sloppy snow helps a lot. Ultralight boots with a huge range of motion and minimalist bindings can be great even with wider skis.

Eh.. I think most of his poor experience likely comes down to the boots. Alien RS are pretty insubstantial. I've tried a few different boots and I really don't like going any lighter than the older Backlands that had the removal tongue with Intuition ProTours and Dynafit TLT7 powerstraps, which are substantially stronger than the other light boots, including Backlands with stock liners.

They actually tour nearly as well because of the removable tongue. Much better than the next step up in boots.

I'd recommend he moves to a stronger boot. While heavier skis are better too, those skis actually do pretty well with a stronger boot like the Backland in that configuration.

[paj]

I have this helmet. I also paid full retail If you're a size large, skimoco have a like new helmet for $90, missing the rear padding. The rear padding is important, but you could easily make your own in 10 minutes.

No Longer. I picked it up with a binding order. Thanks for the fyi.


Also ordered a pair of Roxa RX tours from skimonster.com. Too good of a deal to pass up and from research it seems like the proper fit for my foot. Narrow, low volume feet with medium-low instep.

[riff]

Enjoyable thread ! I’m on pomoca pinks for everything, 300 gram or less bindings, F1LT’s for daily driver, season 3 on my Alpi. Playing around on some 2009 Elan Everest’s now and then when I’m walking a long way; 800gr. Otherwise, Lowdown 90’s, ramblin jack 108, and some Lithic Townes with proto cores that are 1600gr for a 117 waist.


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[TG]

I have this helmet. I also paid full retail If you're a size large, skimoco have a like new helmet for $90, missing the rear padding. The rear padding is important, but you could easily make your own in 10 minutes.

I put mine on at the car and take it off at the car, everyday. I thought it was worth paying full price just to feel a lot better about skiing and being safe at all times.

are you guys with the alpi 3 on all day using the winter liner? how’s that feel while skinning? sweat much?

do you go without the liner (bike mode, I guess) and use a lightweight hat or visored cap underneath?

haven’t toured with a helmet before, I usually climb without much on my head, a baseball cap with baselayer hood pulled over it if the wind or temp dictates. trying to visualize how that temp management would work for me with a helmet on

[tgapp]

When I first got into touring I wanted to ski the lightest gear possible - I was a shit skier at the time (still am today), and it took me a while to find a balance of weight and performance that allowed me to have fun while still skiing a respectable amount of vert. I've found the following axioms to hold true:

1. With boots (as well as skis), there's no substitute for mass when it comes to dealing with bad snow. Sure, boots like the Alien RS are great for hippy pow farming days, but they aren't so awesome at going to battle in mank, sun crusts, etc. The same largely goes for skis, too - narrow, light skis get deflected more easily and can't be driven through crud as well.

I've gone back and forth on a solution to this, and where I'm at right now is a three boot quiver - Alien RS for long walks and hippy pow farming, Skorpius for daily use, and Hawx for resort/side country.

2. Usability matters as much (or more) than a few extra grams. There are plenty of examples here, but a good example (for me) are the Hojis - sure, they're light for a beef boot, but their transitions are absolutely brutal for me. I have to yard down on the walk mode lever so hard that I'm afraid I'm going to snap it off, and then I fiddle with the rest of the buckles. I'd much rather have a boot that is easy to work with that weighs a few grams more.

3. In the same vein as #2, the real feature that light boots have over heavy boots is killer good walk modes. I probably won't notice a few hundred grams while walking up, but I certainly do notice the better range of motion and stride efficiency that ultralight boots have. Hence the Skorpius as my daily driver - it's not a particularly light boot, but it walks worlds better than any of the other boots in its weight class.

4. Bindings don't matter nearly as much as people think they do. I'm firmly in the sub-300g camp, and I care more about the usability of the binding than anything else. I want a riser that covers my pins which I set at the beginning of a tour and forget it exists. Pop the riser off to transition, rip 'em and go. If I were skiing inbounds on pins I would want Vipecs/Tectons for the lateral toe release, but I don't care about any sorts of bells and whistles in the backcountry.

I understand that for many skiers (myself included) the allure of light gear is going further, faster, but there are some very real limitations to that gear which the aerobically minded new skier might be blissfully unaware of...until you're not.

My moment of reckoning came when I tried to ski a big-for-me line (cold fusion) with La Sportiva Vapor Nanos and LaSpo Sytrons. I thought I was so cool with my 1200g skis and 800g boots - I practically flew up the 5.5k of vert. The top of the line was windboard and sastrugi, with 4 good turns in the middle and then 4,000 feet of hot mank to exit. I swore to myself that day that if I made it out alive, I wouldn't make that same mistake twice. I sold my vapor nanos, retired those boots to resort laps, and started touring on real gear. What's the saying? Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement.

I guess all of this puts me firmly into the "light enough" category of skiers.

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[bry]

Zipfit GFT preorders opened up yesterday, might be with a look.

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[teledad]

Can anyone compare the fit on the F1 LTs to the regular F1s and/or the Alien RS? I have F1s and Alien RS in the same size, F1s are a little wide and the Alien RS are a little short. Wondering if the F1 LT would be the perfect middle or if I should try to find someone who can punch the Aliens.

[CirqueScaler]

are you guys with the alpi 3 on all day using the winter liner? how’s that feel while skinning? sweat much?

do you go without the liner (bike mode, I guess) and use a lightweight hat or visored cap underneath?

haven’t toured with a helmet before, I usually climb without much on my head, a baseball cap with baselayer hood pulled over it if the wind or temp dictates. trying to visualize how that temp management would work for me with a helmet on

Living in Utah, I have never used the winter liner. Below 15F (maybe 5-10 days per year), I'll add a very lightweight beanie under the helmet. Between 15 and 30 (most days), my main touring jacket has a really great hood that keeps heat in and wind out. It's really easy to just throw the hood on when I start to get cold (or before the ski down) and take it off when I get hot.

Wearing a helmet on the up is definitely a pain in warmer weather - 30F and above. It gets pretty hot, and there's no fabric to soak up sweat (like a baseball cap). So it's pretty uncomfortable on hot and sunny days. I had a bike helmet - the Specialized Prevail II - that had a really nice headband as part of the retention skeleton thing and soaked up sweat. Wish that the alpi had something like that.

Can anyone compare the fit on the F1 LTs to the regular F1s and/or the Alien RS? I have F1s and Alien RS in the same size, F1s are a little wide and the Alien RS are a little short. Wondering if the F1 LT would be the perfect middle or if I should try to find someone who can punch the Aliens.

They say that the Alien RS and the F1 LT are the same lower, but I really don't think that's the case. I tried both on before settling on the F1 LT, and I found the heel of the F1 LT to be tighter, with a bit more volume above the midfoot and the toes. I think (maybe 65% confidence?) that the F1 LT was just barely longer, but it wasn't remarkable. REI has the F1 LT in stock for most sizes right now, so it'd probably be worth buying because returns are super easy.

[teledad]

are you guys with the alpi 3 on all day using the winter liner? how’s that feel while skinning? sweat much?

do you go without the liner (bike mode, I guess) and use a lightweight hat or visored cap underneath?

I have the Alpi 3 and have never worn the liner, it seemed pretty clunky and hot. If it's cold I'll wear a buff over my head underneath, and pull on a hooded puffy over top for the down. Ventilation is OK, not as good as a bike helmet but a lot better than typical ski helmets. On warm spring days I'll sometimes just wear a hat while skinning and switch to the helmet when I transition. I figure bringing it and just wearing it for the descent is still better than leaving it at home.

[riff]

Likewise, never used the winter liner- i run a buff underneath or a visor on sunny glacier outings in the spring.


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[Westcoaster]

Zipfit GFT preorders opened up yesterday, might be with a look.

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Anyone have thoughts on these? Weight? Will the cork move around while walking? Could be interested in these for my zgtp

[Tailwind]

Thank for the extended thoughts to my gear wonderings.

I’ll probably start by comparing the Alien RS I have to some F1 LT’s and see how much more secure my foot feels with the different closure system. All in all, if I change anything, I’m guessing boots will be the first step. I like the Aliens and if I had a three touring boot quiver I’d probably keep them for consistent snow conditions. Right now the step between these and my Hoji Free is pretty dramatic.

Dream setup at the moment : Movement Alptracks 100 (or Atomic Backland 100’s), Helio 200 LT’s, Scarpa F1 LT, Pink Pomoca skins.

[climberevan]

The RS requires a very centered stance and does not tolerate deviation. It's crazy stiff, so I really doubt anyone 160# could actually fold it, though. You just can't pressure the cuff like on a normal boot.

I think the bigger problem with a lack of fun on mank was that you were skiing mank. I mean, is mank ever fun? Huge skis help, but IME nothing makes it enjoyable (I have Megawatts and mank still sucks on them).

My go-to setup last season and likely this one is Alien RS on Movement Alp Tracks 100 with ATK Crest and Movement branded Contour precut skins.

I use OG F1s for days under 8k or when I'm skiing with the GF. Aski Verglas with ATK race clamps for days when the snow is not super deep, or Megawatts for when it is.

[Tailwind]

Probably true on the ‘folding’ comment. I’m thinking it’s likely that my foot just doesn’t feel secure while skiing. When the skis encountered variable snow it felt like getting forward motion I wasn’t expecting, so more likely my foot shifting in the liner. I have a super low volume instep. I’m running some foam on top of the boot board, and heel wedges in the aliens. That being said, I’m not a centered skier typically. I can work on that a bit this season. I know mank is never ‘fun’ but I’d love for it to feel less sketchy.

Movements look sweet… any feedback on the 100?

The RS requires a very centered stance and does not tolerate deviation. It's crazy stiff, so I really doubt anyone 160# could actually fold it, though. You just can't pressure the cuff like on a normal boot.

I think the bigger problem with a lack of fun on mank was that you were skiing mank. I mean, is mank ever fun? Huge skis help, but IME nothing makes it enjoyable (I have Megawatts and mank still sucks on them).

My go-to setup last season and likely this one is Alien RS on Movement Alp Tracks 100 with ATK Crest and Movement branded Contour precut skins.

I use OG F1s for days under 8k or when I'm skiing with the GF. Aski Verglas with ATK race clamps for days when the snow is not super deep, or Megawatts for when it is.

[bean]

Probably true on the ‘folding’ comment. I’m thinking it’s likely that my foot just doesn’t feel secure while skiing. When the skis encountered variable snow it felt like getting forward motion I wasn’t expecting, so more likely my foot shifting in the liner. I have a super low volume instep. I’m running some foam on top of the boot board, and heel wedges in the aliens. That being said, I’m not a centered skier typically. I can work on that a bit this season. I know mank is never ‘fun’ but I’d love for it to feel less sketchy.

No matter how tight I cranked down the cord on the RS, I couldn't eliminate fore-aft slop in the boot and so any sort of inconsistent snow was very challenging. F1LT fixes that issue for me, it's not much stiffer or heavier but it doesn't have the slop so it's a lot more controllable in tougher snow conditions.

[Benneke10]

The F1 LT accommodates my low instep better than the Alien RS. The boa dial is placed further back towards the ankle so it provides better retention.

[Westcoaster]

Living in Utah, I have never used the winter liner. Below 15F (maybe 5-10 days per year), I'll add a very lightweight beanie under the helmet. Between 15 and 30 (most days), my main touring jacket has a really great hood that keeps heat in and wind out. It's really easy to just throw the hood on when I start to get cold (or before the ski down) and take it off when I get hot.

Wearing a helmet on the up is definitely a pain in warmer weather - 30F and above. It gets pretty hot, and there's no fabric to soak up sweat (like a baseball cap). So it's pretty uncomfortable on hot and sunny days. I had a bike helmet - the Specialized Prevail II - that had a really nice headband as part of the retention skeleton thing and soaked up sweat. Wish that the alpi had something like that.



They say that the Alien RS and the F1 LT are the same lower, but I really don't think that's the case. I tried both on before settling on the F1 LT, and I found the heel of the F1 LT to be tighter, with a bit more volume above the midfoot and the toes. I think (maybe 65% confidence?) that the F1 LT was just barely longer, but it wasn't remarkable. REI has the F1 LT in stock for most sizes right now, so it'd probably be worth buying because returns are super easy.

I agree. I could not fit into 28/27.5 RS but am totally fine in f1 lt. I dont buy that the bootboard can sufficiently change the fit to explain this difference.

[Benneke10]

I agree. I could not fit into 28/27.5 RS but am totally fine in f1 lt. I dont buy that the bootboard can sufficiently change the fit to explain this difference.

The lower shells have different shapes. If you hold them side by side it is clearly visible.

[Westcoaster]

The lower shells have different shapes. If you hold them side by side it is clearly visible.

Yeah i believe it. The claim from scarpa was that the lower boot was identical internally. No way thats true.

F1lt cuff is also a fair bit higher and more substantial than the RS. Its a better boot for touring all around, IMHO.

[CirqueScaler]

The lower shells have different shapes. If you hold them side by side it is clearly visible.

Can you take a pic? People bring this up so often, it'd be nice to have a reference.

Why claim they are the same lower lol? Just say it's different but still has the low volume fit that RS lovers need.

climberevan gets it. Nice setups. "for days under 8k". legendary.

[Tailwind]

Can anyone comment on the fit of the dynafit TLT 8 compared to the F1 LT?

I’ve typically fit really well in dynafit 27.5 (the Vulcan fit me better than any other boot ever has). I know the liner is thin but I’m wondering about the shell fit with an intuition liner. Dynafit heels have historically worked for me while scarpa has not.

I’ll probably try to track down a pair to skip on but looking for general feedback.

[Benneke10]

The TLT8 is one of the highest-volume touring boots ever made and the F1 LT is narrow-ish medium volume and fits closer to the TLT5/6 era boots but definitely has a bit more volume than the older Dynas

[Tailwind]

dammit.

Alright. I’ll won’t bother trying a pair on.

The TLT8 is one of the highest-volume touring boots ever made and the F1 LT is narrow-ish medium volume and fits closer to the TLT5/6 era boots but definitely has a bit more volume than the older Dynas