The Bootfitter’s Thread

[gregL]

What kinds of service do you include with a new full price boot purchase? I throw in a free liner mold with 2 follow up visits. Do you guys include punches or grinds or...?

Anything I can do in a 1.5 hour appointment, which often includes punches (we seldom grind anything any more, shells are too thin). Officially to get more "free" bootfitting services, the customer is required to also purchase a footbed package (trim-to-fit footbed gets 1 free follow up, custom footbed gets unlimited follow ups), but off the record I will continue to work on a problem boot on any in-line boot purchased at full price. Sale and closeout boots, it varies with my mood and what time of year it is/how busy the shop is.

[robnow]

Our shop offers 2 years of included boot work. Ran into a couple touring the other day which just got boots at SkiUphill in Canmore, supposedly lifetime adjustments…insane.

[natebob]

Thanks for the responses everyone. While it does seem pretty standard to include free labor with boot and ski related purchases, it bums me out a little how much we as knowledgeable service providers are expected to do that in order to get the sale and keep the customer long term. Of course if we are doing a good job picking and fitting a boot to begin with, we will be doing less for free on the back end. But still, when you add up the time spent and services given on a sale from start to finish, it makes the margin seem pretty short on some purchases. I guess it's worth it in terms of getting the customer in the shop, hoping they make additional purchases. And I totally get the value of a customer over time, I'm big on that.

[natebob]

Blisters on sides of heels, what to do? Customer has Maestrale RS, 1 generation older than current version. He came from the 4 buckle RS, had no blister issues. The new liner has pretty firm pads around the heel pocket. Heel fit is good and snug, skis well, but blisters start very soon when touring. I don't think the issue is too much room in the heel. I want to preserve as snug a fit as possible, but feel like the snug heel pocket is the problem. I'm thinking about heating up the heel area of the liner and making the heel pockets roomier using the rubbing bar so as not to change the fit of the rest of the liner. Or, doing a full remold, padding the sides of the heels, hoping to relieve some pressure. He's using the same green Superfeet. I'm also wondering if the heel pocket changed from the old boot to the new one, but I don't think so. If the heel pocket shape did change, I'm considering a thinner footbed to drop his heel lower in the boot. What do you guys think?

[jummo]

Blisters on sides of heels, what to do? Customer has Maestrale RS, 1 generation older than current version. He came from the 4 buckle RS, had no blister issues. The new liner has pretty firm pads around the heel pocket. Heel fit is good and snug, skis well, but blisters start very soon when touring. I don't think the issue is too much room in the heel. I want to preserve as snug a fit as possible, but feel like the snug heel pocket is the problem. I'm thinking about heating up the heel area of the liner and making the heel pockets roomier using the rubbing bar so as not to change the fit of the rest of the liner. Or, doing a full remold, padding the sides of the heels, hoping to relieve some pressure. He's using the same green Superfeet. I'm also wondering if the heel pocket changed from the old boot to the new one, but I don't think so. If the heel pocket shape did change, I'm considering a thinner footbed to drop his heel lower in the boot. What do you guys think?

It's quite common that people who suffer from poor heel retention do so because of a lack of dorsiflexion.
If the boots net forward angle (cuff angle minus zeppa angle) exceeds the skiers ROM, the heel has to come up. And no amount of tightening will fix the problem.
Check for ROM, and then increase the ramp and and decrease the boots forward angle and try to get the boots angle more in line with that of the customer.

[robnow]

Blisters on sides of heels, what to do? Customer has Maestrale RS, 1 generation older than current version. He came from the 4 buckle RS, had no blister issues. The new liner has pretty firm pads around the heel pocket. Heel fit is good and snug, skis well, but blisters start very soon when touring. I don't think the issue is too much room in the heel. I want to preserve as snug a fit as possible, but feel like the snug heel pocket is the problem. I'm thinking about heating up the heel area of the liner and making the heel pockets roomier using the rubbing bar so as not to change the fit of the rest of the liner. Or, doing a full remold, padding the sides of the heels, hoping to relieve some pressure. He's using the same green Superfeet. I'm also wondering if the heel pocket changed from the old boot to the new one, but I don't think so. If the heel pocket shape did change, I'm considering a thinner footbed to drop his heel lower in the boot. What do you guys think?

I might be putting too much praise on this but is he in a good poly sock vs merino? I’ve had such good luck minimizing blisters, both myself and others who gave me feedback, using the Dissent Nano Tours. For myself, even using compression icebreakers would produce blisters in the same conditions the nano tours don’t. Feel free to tell me if I’m out to lunch.

[kootenayskier]

I might be putting too much praise on this but is he in a good poly sock vs merino? I’ve had such good luck minimizing blisters, both myself and others who gave me feedback, using the Dissent Nano Tours. For myself, even using compression icebreakers would produce blisters in the same conditions the nano tours don’t. Feel free to tell me if I’m out to lunch.

I don’t need blister protection, and after using em for a bit realized I prefer the feel/smell/moisture management of merino, but Nano Tours are like nothing else in providing a tight, smooth fit. I can’t imagine it’s possible to get blisters in them.

[mntlion]

It's quite common that people who suffer from poor heel retention do so because of a lack of dorsiflexion.
If the boots net forward angle (cuff angle minus zeppa angle) exceeds the skiers ROM, the heel has to come up. And no amount of tightening will fix the problem.
Check for ROM, and then increase the ramp and and decrease the boots forward angle and try to get the boots angle more in line with that of the customer.

yup

[GoldenBC]

Did the binding change? That could play into the dorsiflexion question. Did the shell change its geometry between the two versions he had?

Did the socks change? I ski in the intuition fitting socks and I have never got a blister or any hot spots. Was it just one tour that gave him blisters? What was going on that day? How many days toured, big day, shitty skin track, hot?

Can he go back to his old liner for a day? The fact that you have acknowledged there is a pressure point makes it worth exploring. Aggressive punch and abrasive socks will wreak havoc.

[gregL]

Did the binding change? That could play into the dorsiflexion question. Did the shell change its geometry between the two versions he had?

Did the socks change? I ski in the intuition fitting socks and I have never got a blister or any hot spots. Was it just one tour that gave him blisters? What was going on that day? How many days toured, big day, shitty skin track, hot?

Can he go back to his old liner for a day? The fact that you have acknowledged there is a pressure point makes it worth exploring. Aggressive punch and abrasive socks will wreak havoc.

Good suggestions from the crew here. Hadn't thought about using the Intuition fitting socks, we have shitloads of them sitting around - though I usually skin in Dissents or Darn Tough RFL's with good results (smooth interior texture is the name of the game). There are some other obvious things to check, like are they unbuckling the whole boot rather than just the cuff to skin, whether they are using the heel lifters correctly or if they have a super light race binding with only one level and are trying to use the community steep skin track, whether it is the first long trip of the season (I've often blistered on day one of the season and then had no issues after the skin heeled and toughened up), and yeah, lack of dorsiflexion. Also, the heel itself is not the only thing that stops the heel from moving vertically - you can often get less movement with a smaller diameter cuff or tighter instep (but they might complain about that, too).

[GoldenBC]

I’ve used the same set of intuition socks for four years. No holes. $5 too.

[gregL]

I’ve used the same set of intuition socks for four years. No holes. $5 too.

Every time someone buys an Intuition liner, it comes with a mesh bag, toecaps and set of fitting socks. Free lingerie bag! Free touring socks! (Most people leave them in the shop).

[natebob]

Did the binding change? That could play into the dorsiflexion question. Did the shell change its geometry between the two versions he had?

Did the socks change? I ski in the intuition fitting socks and I have never got a blister or any hot spots. Was it just one tour that gave him blisters? What was going on that day? How many days toured, big day, shitty skin track, hot?

Can he go back to his old liner for a day? The fact that you have acknowledged there is a pressure point makes it worth exploring. Aggressive punch and abrasive socks will wreak havoc.

Same binding. Shell geometry didn't change that I know of, although I'm starting to suspect that.

Same socks. He blistered first time using these new liners after a good mold last season. Used old liners for the rest of the season, then blistered right away first tour this season, skinning groomers at the local hill, not hot.

I think I'm going look at ROM as others have said, possibly remold going for a less aggressive heel pocket.

[natebob]

Good suggestions from the crew here. Hadn't thought about using the Intuition fitting socks, we have shitloads of them sitting around - though I usually skin in Dissents or Darn Tough RFL's with good results (smooth interior texture is the name of the game). There are some other obvious things to check, like are they unbuckling the whole boot rather than just the cuff to skin, whether they are using the heel lifters correctly or if they have a super light race binding with only one level and are trying to use the community steep skin track, whether it is the first long trip of the season (I've often blistered on day one of the season and then had no issues after the skin heeled and toughened up), and yeah, lack of dorsiflexion. Also, the heel itself is not the only thing that stops the heel from moving vertically - you can often get less movement with a smaller diameter cuff or tighter instep (but they might complain about that, too).

Yes, thanks for the suggestions everyone. I appreciate the knowledge and help here.

He's an experienced skinner, has played around with different buckles open and closed, and knows how to use lifters.

[GoldenBC]

What do you guys think the relationship between toes on the end of a boot and a good skiing boot are? I don’t mean “when you downsize so your toes are tight, the ankle is also tight and it skis well.” I mean, the fact that your toes are on the end of the boot stops your foot from moving around.

[gregL]

What do you guys think the relationship between toes on the end of a boot and a good skiing boot are? I don’t mean “when you downsize so your toes are tight, the ankle is also tight and it skis well.” I mean, the fact that your toes are on the end of the boot stops your foot from moving around.

If you can tolerate it, toes on the end of the boot will certainly ski downhill better (assuming you maintain a balanced position while skiing and don't huck 20 footers to backseat craters). Whether a given skier can tolerate it depends on several factors like forefoot shape (heavily big toe-dominant shapes are worse than a smooth curve from first to fifth phalanges, especially since there's one less joint in that toe), midfoot and ankle fit (snugger will lock you in place better), instep fit (tighter holds the foot in place better but also decreases circulation), footbed effectiveness in preventing fore/aft movement, how well you manicure your nails, etc. And it's true that downsizing 1 Mondo will generally hold you in place better because the shell is 2mm narrower, assuming you can make the tight spots disappear. How people define a "good skiing boot" and a "comfortable boot" is all over the place, too.

If you're touring in said boot, all of the above should probably align or you might want to consider upsizing.

I encourage people I suspect are decent skiers to be right on the end of the boot when standing straight-legged in a new boot, but be able to get their toes off the end when they flex into it. I encourage people I know are good skiers to sometimes go even shorter, because they know what I'm talking about when I say the boot will pack out and I can make the toe longer if needed.

Generally you can achieve this sort of fit with a shell fit of between 15 and 22 millimeters (not "fingers," everyone's finger is a different thickness). I'm a little more generous if the boot is above 28.5, usually subtract a few millimeters if the boot is below 24.5.

[gregL]

PS We keep several toenail clippers in the boot lab, and several times a day ask customers to clip their nails before we start a bootfit . . .

[GoldenBC]

Great info on a good fit but I’m not sure if you got my point about the toes being on the end as an actual key aspect of good fit. As in, often people dream about if their shell was just a bit longer it would be perfect because it would have the volume of a smaller shell but just a few mm of extra toe room for comfort. I’m suggesting that wouldn’t work because your toes being on the end of the boot is like a wedge that stops your foot from moving. I wonder if that helps with heel lift too as the heel is forced into the back of the boot at all times.

[gregL]

Great info on a good fit but I’m not sure if you got my point about the toes being on the end as an actual key aspect of good fit. As in, often people dream about if their shell was just a bit longer it would be perfect because it would have the volume of a smaller shell but just a few mm of extra toe room for comfort. I’m suggesting that wouldn’t work because your toes being on the end of the boot is like a wedge that stops your foot from moving. I wonder if that helps with heel lift too as the heel is forced into the back of the boot at all times.

It works well if the person's forefoot shape matches the interior shape of the shell, but cuff diameter and instep height are also important. If not, and I don't already have them in a 97-98mm last, I sometimes go up a Mondo and down in width (so actually the same width). Not every skier appreciates the extra percentage points in performance derived from being in the smallest boot possible.

[Meadow Skipper]

PS We keep several toenail clippers in the boot lab, and several times a day ask customers to clip their nails before we start a bootfit . . .

Heh, I was molding liners for myself yesterday and thinking of this exact thing - some old unpleasant memories from the shop days.

[sb]

So a non ski boot question.

I have some low top hikers that have been terrible for me. On a suggestion from my trail running/hiker GF i took out the foot beds which helped the heel lift a ton and gave my normal width high arch feet better room. I could still use a bit more room for my heel to be a tad lower so i want to grind/sand a small pocket. Any tips for working down the hard rubber?

I do have a dremel with a bunch of heads.

[robnow]

Great info on a good fit but I’m not sure if you got my point about the toes being on the end as an actual key aspect of good fit. As in, often people dream about if their shell was just a bit longer it would be perfect because it would have the volume of a smaller shell but just a few mm of extra toe room for comfort. I’m suggesting that wouldn’t work because your toes being on the end of the boot is like a wedge that stops your foot from moving. I wonder if that helps with heel lift too as the heel is forced into the back of the boot at all times.

But if we were actually relying on using the front of the boot as another point of contact in limiting motion, don’t you think our toes would be more banged up than they are (I.e. more black toes, calluses on front of toes).

As an addendum to the question, how is it that North America has a reputation for sizing down and Europe not? They’re the ones with the more slender feet. I will say, I’ve been generally less aggressive with sizing people this season, albeit I’m only part time but in the biggest selling boot shop in the area and seemingly I’ve been selling way more skis than boots this season, hallelujah!!!

I have Biomechanics background so do find all this stuff interesting and honestly, the more I learn and experience I have, the more I question how we bootfit. Did anybody listen to the Blister Podcast with the Moment guy, talking about fitting boots more like barefoot runners, foot splay, etc? I’ve always thought this, Skiers Manifesto dude preaches it too, but how do you execute this in reality?

I measure 287-288 long, medium to medium-wide, I prefer the feel of a stock liner MV 27 over LV 28, the MV 27 matches up better in shape, LV 28 feels misshapen. This season skiing same ProWrap liner in LV Mach 130 (slightly tight but fine, bootboard ground right down but to accommodate thicker more padded footbed), Cochise (slightly big, even with 2 Bontex underneath), and Radical Pro. All 27s, all punched for big toe only because it’s square on the inside, all the same thicker more padded footbed).

[GoldenBC]

That’s the biggest question mark in my theory. My answer to that could be that if you know your toes are touching you compensate to protect them and only get beat up toes when your backslap. Maybe it’s like a driver of a car using the steering wheel from getting tossed around. You don’t really think you’re doing it until you sit in the passenger seat and lurch around like the person is driving like a goon. I’m not sure. I’ve been curled up in my boots for years and never lost a toe nail or been bruised. Any boot that has toes that are clear is way too big even if the boot isn’t way bigger. I could see it being totally off but I’ve never seen it discussed.

Side note, Had a client come in the other day with a longer second toe that would bang. Pedorthist suggested they put a bumper on their big toe so it hit first because it is designed to take impact.

No idea on the euro thing but maybe the generalizations make it misleading. Do good skiers not size down there? Do they have different measuring devices? Using the Salomon foot measuring device, if i matched people to their measurement (254 in a 25.5) they would all come back complaining of movement no matter how casual they ski. All my euro friends say the average skier there is very beginner compared to the average skier here.

I have not listened to that podcast. Will have to check it out.

[gregL]

No idea on the euro thing but maybe the generalizations make it misleading. Do good skiers not size down there? Do they have different measuring devices? Using the Salomon foot measuring device, if i matched people to their measurement (254 in a 25.5) they would all come back complaining of movement no matter how casual they ski. All my euro friends say the average skier there is very beginner compared to the average skier here.

Unless you're skiing at the Europa Cup level or above, you don't (with a few exceptions) have access to bootfitting as we know it in North America. They just bring out a bigger boot when people complain that it hurts, they don't try to modify it. Doesn't make sense, but trying to get a simple fifth met punch done in several well-stocked shops in Austria was super frustrating - I ended up taking a friend back to the hotel, putting like 5 bandaids over the pressure point, and using the hotel hair dryer to get him more room in a pair of Scarpas.

[altabird92]

This could be a really dumb question, but is there any material you can use to fill in space that’s been ground out incorrectly?