WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

[Benneke10]

I have very mixed feelings about this, as I think that fundamentally, public lands should be kept public. Paying a significant toll essentially serves as a flowgate to keep low-income and minority families from enjoying these places. If there was an implementable way to employ a sliding scale fee structure, I'd pay out of my ass if it made a difference, but if a fee kept families from using these places (which certainly happens in Millcreek), then I would encourage alternatives that limit traffic and impact while still preserving access to low-income members of the community.

+1 to this. At this point the only proposed toll is for upper LCC in winter, and even then it would only be implemented after a bus or gondola alternative is up and running.

[snowaddict91]

and here is the slick gondola works video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-3pFNQeVM

They couldn't find some better skiers?

I've long been a fan of a gondola, but seeing the capacity numbers it doesn't make a ton of sense as THE solution. Realistically I think we need the gondola AND road, but the road should probably be the first to come.

[Dantheman]

and here is the slick gondola works video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-3pFNQeVM

Fuck these guys with a sharp stick. That made me more convinced than ever that it's a bad idea.

"Gondola keeps moving even when traffic stops" = So you get to spend hours in the gondi line instead since it only moves 1,000 bodies per hour. But at least you can pass the time by buying overpriced coffee and snacks and you can store your stuff in exorbitantly-priced lockers.

"Gondola keeps moving when there's an avalanche" = See above, plus the benefit is overstated since the snowsheds will make extended avi closures far less common, and the potential for country club days is gone forever.

It's my understanding (quite possibly flawed, please correct me if so) that the parking structure will be on private property, and thus will be a private facility, so don't expect to park there for free like you would at the mobility hubs, which get reduced in size drastically. Traffic also remains fubar'ed on 210/209/Wasatch which is one of the main priorities of this whole plan.

I know telefreewasatch likes the gondola plan, and I respect the living shit out of TFW, but there's so much wrong with it as proposed.

+1 to this. At this point the only proposed toll is for upper LCC in winter, and even then it would only be implemented after a bus or gondola alternative is up and running.

Yeah, tolling without a transit option is a bit of a dick move. Tolling alone doesn't seem to do much for the crowding problem in Millcreek/AF/Mirror Lake Hwy.

[Dantheman]

They couldn't find some better skiers?

That was intentional, guaranteed. Midwest/East Coast beaters are where the money is, and the gondola proposal is about marketing to them as much as anything else.

I've long been a fan of a gondola, but seeing the capacity numbers it doesn't make a ton of sense as THE solution. Realistically I think we need the gondola AND road, but the road should probably be the first to come.

Please let UDOT know your opinion, comment period runs until August 9: https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.utah.gov/

[jtran10]

"It's my understanding (quite possibly flawed, please correct me if so) that the parking structure will be on private property, and thus will be a private facility, so don't expect to park there for free like you would at the mobility hubs, which get reduced in size drastically. Traffic also remains fubar'ed on 210/209/Wasatch which is one of the main priorities of this whole plan."


Perhaps I've missed this info but I'm interested to know:

-where parking is free with both proposed solutions
-is parking free at the ski resorts if you drive and pay the toll (maybe that's TBD)
-is the gondola free to ride?
-is the bus free to ride? (at least, free with a season pass)

Mainly, what is the average skier's out of pocket spend on getting to upper LCC, vs. what do these solutions each cost UTA which I've found pretty easily.

[brutah]

Just came here to say the gondola idea is garbage and I understand why it gets support from patrollers because they wouldn't get stuck up canyon if they close it or have to take hours to get home after work due to a car accident in the canyon.

But it almost triples the time to get up canyon, so just like the buses, no one will ride it if they don't have to. Plus they aren't going to run it in the summer. Plus it's a publically-funded project that solely will benefit private businesses. And like dantheman mentioned they'll almost certainly be charging for parking....

[snowaddict91]

If I remember correctly, GondolaWorks is a bunch of rich fucks that own land where the la caille base station would be, including former rep. Neiderhouser, who doesn't want ski traffic in "his" neighborhood at the f'in base of LCC. FWIW.

[snowaddict91]

That was intentional, guaranteed. Midwest/East Coast beaters are where the money is, and the gondola proposal is about marketing to them as much as anything else.



Please let UDOT know your opinion, comment period runs until August 9: https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.utah.gov/

#beaterspaythebills

Already did! Still somewhat invested in how this goes as work may bring me back to SLC full time at some point down the road.

[Boissal]

I have very mixed feelings about this, as I think that fundamentally, public lands should be kept public. Paying a significant toll essentially serves as a flowgate to keep low-income and minority families from enjoying these places. If there was an implementable way to employ a sliding scale fee structure, I'd pay out of my ass if it made a difference, but if a fee kept families from using these places (which certainly happens in Millcreek), then I would encourage alternatives that limit traffic and impact while still preserving access to low-income members of the community.

While I appreciate the sentiment, it's worth pointing out that by definition any barrier to entry in the canyons is going to disproportionately affect those with less disposable income. If there was a way to address that it would have been implemented in other aspects of society that are significantly more important than fucking around in the woods. Last I checked that hasn't happened yet and the less fortunate are generally getting the short end of the stick, assuming there's any stick left for them to have. A tiered fee structure will never happen, that shit would end up at the Supreme Court faster than you can spell out "taxing the rich more is unfair". As far as public lands staying public, I'm all for it, and I firmly believe than a fee to enter the Cottonwoods is not anywhere near the top of the list of things which limit anyone's ability to recreate on public lands. Yes, I'm a cynic. Hard not to be these days...

Anyone who skis at resorts on weekends would disagree with you

Near as bad. Hyperbole was meant to highlight the fact that the summer traffic is ramping up insanely fast and it's starting to look like winter up there.
The canyons have always been a shitshow in the winter with the magnitude of said shitshow increasing significantly in the past 5 years or so. The summer use appears to have increased even faster. I don't remember not being able to park at the S curves 5 years ago regardless of the time of day, now the whole road is clogged up by 8AM. The Brighton lot was half-full by 9AM on Sat. That is new. I have been getting up early to ski for a decade out of necessity, now I'm starting to do the same in the summer and it's because I like to be up at the crack of dawn...

[DLD in UT]

Any know what the explosion on Baldy was at 11:30ish today? Seemed to be a bit down into the Collins side. Put up a good puff of smoke and dirt. No helicopters around.

[Trefin]

Please let UDOT know your opinion, comment period runs until August 9: https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.utah.gov/

Thanks, just did and shared it with friends. I'm pro bus. I have a feeling the gondola is gonna get railroaded through, even though the last thing we need is another successful marketing campaign to visit Utah before we actually do something about the infrastructure.

[Dantheman]

Perhaps I've missed this info but I'm interested to know:

-where parking is free with both proposed solutions
-is parking free at the ski resorts if you drive and pay the toll (maybe that's TBD)
-is the gondola free to ride?
-is the bus free to ride? (at least, free with a season pass)

I think this is all TBD still, but these seem like safe assumptions:

-The mobility hubs at the Gravel Pit and 9400 S will probably be free, just like any other UTA P&R location. I'll eat my shorts if the La Caille parking facility is free.
-Parking fees at the resorts will likely be at the discretion of Alta and Snowbird and won't be directly tied to the transit alternative.
-Maybe for passholders, NFW for anyone else.
-Buses probably will continue to be free for passholders, though that benefit is at the discretion of Alta and Snowbird and not guaranteed by UTA.

Plus it's a publically-funded project that solely will benefit private businesses.

Yes, it's a huge subsidy for private businesses that are already highly profitable. No way increased tax receipts and passenger revenue will come anywhere close to covering the cost of either alternative. UTA as a whole only gets 5.8% of it's budget from passenger revenue: https://rideuta.com/-/media/Files/Ab...020.ashx?la=en

I'm still of the opinion that the road shitshow is the only thing preserving the actual skiing. If it were up to me they'd shed the road to mitigate the avalanche hazard, and any other improvements should be funded by Alta and Snowbird if they desire. At least with the bus alternative the road gets safer for cyclists, and there isn't a giant fucking gondola hanging in the air unused for half the year. The only bone the public gets in the gondola alternative is trailhead improvements, but those can and should be addressed separately.

If I remember correctly, GondolaWorks is a bunch of rich fucks that own land where the la caille base station would be, including former rep. Neiderhouser, who doesn't want ski traffic in "his" neighborhood at the f'in base of LCC. FWIW.

The former is definitely correct, shady rich fuck developers just looking to make a buck. I'm not sure about the latter, putting the main parking facility at the La Caille location seems way worse for traffic on 210/209/Wasatch than having all transit parking at the Gravel Pit and 9400 S mobility hubs. Unless, of course, like Neiderhouser you happen to live walking distance to the La Caille base station, and then it makes perfect sense to want it there. Selfish asshole logic FTW.

I have a feeling the gondola is gonna get railroaded through

This is my fear as well.

"Longest gondola in the world! If we build it they will come!"

The only upside I see is that by the time my kid graduates college my house in White Trash City might be worth well north of $1M and I can cash out and retire early.

[schindlerpiste]

The only upside I see is that by the time my kid graduates college my house in White Trash City might be worth well north of $1M and I can cash out and retire early.

DTM looking to realize the "American Dream."

[Dantheman]

DTM looking to realize the "American Dream."

The "But where do we go?" problem will probably be much worse by then, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

[altacoup]

Just here to remind you guys that the gondola is a second means of egress for lcc. Necessary for the Olympic committee to give the go ahead for events at snowbird. Is a done deal and any amount of logical arguing is equivalent to banging your head against the wall. Not saying it’s the right plan, but if you look who’s involved and what’s going on behind the scenes. The writing is on the wall.

[Dantheman]

Necessary for the Olympic committee to give the go ahead for events at snowbird.

File under: "Other things I'd rather not see happen."

Not saying it’s the right plan, but if you look who’s involved and what’s going on behind the scenes.

It's hard to imagine a bigger cesspool of corruption than the Utah state government and the IOC working together. Can we get FIFA involved while we're at it?

[skifishbum]

the lockers and coffee will be way cheaper and you can park at the crib and ill drop ya off at the gondi
on my way to ski places that already shit shows
i bet my green jello pins will be worth at least a grand this time round
glad i didnt cash out

[muted reborn]

Can't wait for the inevitable 'how did the gondola cable snap' debate.

[jtran10]

Can't wait for the inevitable 'how did the gondola cable snap' debate.

Or, "why did we end up building this ridiculous gondola when there isn't even any snow on the road anymore?"

[Trefin]

Just here to remind you guys that the gondola is a second means of egress for lcc. Necessary for the Olympic committee to give the go ahead for events at snowbird. Is a done deal and any amount of logical arguing is equivalent to banging your head against the wall. Not saying it’s the right plan, but if you look who’s involved and what’s going on behind the scenes. The writing is on the wall.

We know, but if there is enough of a stink over how much people want buses or think the gondola is stupid, there might be some compromises made instead of giving them everything they want with no contingencies.

This is basically the equivalent of utah subsidizing a new sports stadium for the jazz where its 90% taxpayer funded. If you put up a fuss it at least makes them reel back some greediness. maybe we get free parking!(not)

[mall walker]

just put the gondola up american fork and send all the tourists up that way. problem solved.

[Dantheman]

If you put up a fuss it at least makes them reel back some greediness.

The concession will be that they won't put billboards on the towers.

just put the gondola up american fork and send all the tourists up that way. problem solved.

I'd trade a Snowbird access point in AF for no gondola in LCC in a heartbeat.

[telefreewasatch]

Y'all are smokin' crack.
I'll pass.

[Dantheman]

Y'all are smokin' crack.
I'll pass.

If the gondola had the capacity to be the primary mode of transportation in the canyon I'd be totally on board. But, it's not even close. Most residents and visitors will still be exposed to avalanche risk on the road. Further, it's not unreasonable to expect upper LCC to be inaccessible for 24-72 hours periodically. Many communities exist on islands that rely on ferry service that doesn't operate during severe weather and this isn't much different. I really wish I could see eye to eye with you on this one.

Snowbird's email about this today contained a barely-veiled threat to put a lift up Superior if they don't get the gondola, so that's nice.

[altacoup]

My guess (no insider info) is that the final as built gondola will have a greater uphill capacity than the eis study. Once the Olympic committee gets involved and the real money starts flowing I’d imagine there will be some changes.