WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

[Boissal]

Excluding the deaths and reported slides, have you guys seen snowpacks like this every few years? Or is this snowpack like once in a 10/20/50 year event

I'll defer to older guys here with more history. I've only been here since 2014. I remember PWL healing a lot more quickly and repeaters being a bigger issue than widespread PWL. Early 2017-2018 was a bad snow year and there were lots of PWL issues until we had rain to 11,000 that welded everything in place. 2012 was similar to this year as well.

Most seasons in the Wasatch feature some sort of PWL problem but it very rarely lasts more than a couple of weeks. Shitty early season snow tends to get buried fast and bridged and the occasional January high pressure dry spell that produces thick hoars is usually followed by consistent snowfall that inactivates the weak layer within a couple of storm cycles.

I think this is the worst it's been since I started touring in 08 or so. Hard to say how much of the issue is directly related to the snowpack vs an increase in the touring population + changes in behavior. Regardless, the results speak for themselves. This is an uncommon problem and we're not adjusting to it fast enough.

Edit: clearly, persistent weak layer isn't the right term for the standard issue we deal with in the Wasatch. Short-term problem with deep slab instability is more like it.
A truly persistent weak layer is a rare beast for us and we are now seeing the consequences.

[powdork]

As for people needing to dial down their risk, I see it different. People think what they are doing isn't risky, they think are being safe and smart skirting around hazards, that's the real problem.

That's exactly why I cringe whenever I see a caltopo or gaia map.

[Lone Star]

In.... 2010? 2011? There was a really nasty widespread surface hoar layer that was responsible for slides starting on slopes less than 30 degrees. I recall it being incredibly spooky but don't have any memories of any tragedies due to that layer. Regardless, that is still an apples vs oranges comparison because

clearly, persistent weak layer isn't the right term for the standard issue we deal with in the Wasatch. Short-term problem with deep slab instability is more like it.
A truly persistent weak layer is a rare beast for us and we are now seeing the consequences.

[Phall]

Posted in the slide zone thread, but names released. I didn’t know any of them but man, I’m just having a hard time processing this one for some reason. Friends of friends, all in their 20’s. RIP.

https://www.ksl.com/article/50102621...nyon-avalanche


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[MultiVerse]

In.... 2010? 2011? There was a really nasty widespread surface hoar layer that was responsible for slides starting on slopes less than 30 degrees. I recall it being incredibly spooky but don't have any memories of any tragedies due to that layer. Regardless, that is still an apples vs oranges comparison because

Ski season nomenclature is confusing. Everyone talks about 2011 as an awesome +800 inch season but that's for the 2010-2011 season. The following 2011-2012 season was a bad PWL season.

There were a lot close calls and near tragedies that season. The UAC used to make a lot of appeals for reports and you would hear about incidents happening without ever seeing a complete UAC report involving involved interviews. That's at least one thing that seems to have changed. A lot more people are posting, reporting, and talking afterwards.

[tBatt]

I didn’t know any of them but man, I’m just having a hard time processing this one for some reason. Friends of friends, all in their 20’s. RIP.

Likewise,
The nature of the beast in Small Lake City.

[TeleBlade]

Social media is the reason for a lot of people. For others the worst BC day is better than the best resort day.

There's the photo a few pages back of the group bunched together even though everybody knows you should spread out. The reason why that happens is it's a lot fun talking shit with friends. There's a huge social aspect to backcountry skiing. With the right group touring uphill is as fun as skiing downhill.

I am guessing the picture you are referring to is the group of five approaching from BCC. They are walking on the ridgeline up and over Wilson Peak to the Wilson Glade. There is almost no exposure on this ridgeline as long as one stays off the cornices. I made a few assumptions there.

[MultiVerse]

^ Yeah, the second picture in the set you're referring to is from the top of Wilson Peak after the BCC-Millcreek divide ridge walk. I meant that in general people should spread out when traveling in avalanche terrain.

[powdork]

I am guessing the picture you are referring to is the group of five approaching from BCC. They are walking on the ridgeline up and over Wilson Peak to the Wilson Glade. There is almost no exposure on this ridgeline as long as one stays off the cornices. I made a few assumptions there.

I thought he was talking about the folks on superior.

I'm just playing Quarantine Quarterback out my window but what's all this nonesense I hear about only exposing one person at a time?

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[monkeywrenchMoose]

Spent the morning thinking about all this and decided to dig out this old issue of Powder. My thoughts on it below.



This morning I dug out one of the few copies of Powder Magazine I’ve saved over the years, a black and white cover with only words describing its content: “Why Do The Best Skiers Keep Dying?”. That issue is nearly ten years old now. Its opening letter from the editor describes an editorial conference in which frustration boils over and a pen is thrown: “We’re not asking the real question”. It turns out, we still aren’t.

The December 2012 issue followed a string of high-profile ski and snowboard deaths: Jamie Pierre, Sarah Burke, Jim Jack and Greg Costa in the previous 12 months alone. These on the heels of many other high-profile deaths dating back to Doug Coombs in 2006. The opening editors letter asked if it was possible to end these types of deaths. In rhetorical fashion, the answer was “probably not”.

This time around it isn’t just, “the best” skiers that are dying, it’s recreational skiers who are dying. While not quite as visible to the public eye, the cycle of death had come full circle in a predictable way. Based on reports from Avalanche.org, 15 of the 21 deaths in the 20-21 season were experienced backcountry travelers. If the question and result are the same, then the same solution likely won’t produce any real change.

The discussion following this recent string of deaths has followed much of the same rhetoric as that in 11-12. The Powder article opened with finger pointing at ease of access due to improvements in gear. Mike Douglas criticized the sports’ need for progression. Robb Gaffney offers a more nuanced analysis, placing blame on the complex relationship between sponsorship and the pervasiveness of media in the backcountry leading to an increase in the frequency of interaction between skiers and sketchy conditions.

Discussion on this board following the Wilson Glades accident blames Epic, Ikon and population growth for creating insufficient supply to meet skier demand. Apocalyptic lines and disaster traffic lead people leave the moguls in favor of untracked BC. Others on here cite desire to find added challenge in the sport beyond the simple act of powder turns.

All of those answers are in response to what I think is essentially the wrong question. The question shouldn’t be “why do people keep dying in the backcountry”. Rather it should be “How do we normalize the decision to turn around when things are sketchy?”

In 2012, the discussion surrounded high profile skiers. The ski world, just like the political or pop culture world, tends to promote discussion from the top down. We see or hear what those at the top are doing and adjust our behaviors accordingly, most often unintentionally. The snow pack is too complex and human interaction is much too fluid to think that professional skiers alone could offer the golden solution. But it is possible that by making the decision to not ski more visible during conditions like those we have currently, professionals could influence and in turn normalize that decision making. Essentially, make it cool to back down.

Normalize conservative decision making in the backcountry. Powder was on the right track in 2012, but their article largely offered explanations to questions that weren’t the core of the issue. They almost nailed it in their middle paragraphs; they celebrated the longevity of Wayne Wong and Glen Plake, whose careers have spanned decades. Unfortunately, that paragraph was a small buoy in a storm-struck sea of potential solutions. Perhaps it’s time for ski media professionals to shine a brighter light on those trips where the objective isn’t met, but things go right in a much more subtle way. Lets celebrate the decisions that lead to more ski days.

[S_jenks]

Reading through this thread over the past couple weeks has been a wild trip. Emotionally taxing for sure, but the perspectives here along with the back-and-forths have been worth reading over and over. I cannot imagine dealing with losing someone in an avalanche , and my sincere condolences to those who have perished, and those who have had to live through such events.

One thing I could add here is that the angle of social media influence cannot be hit on hard enough. The world of outdoor sports is particularly vulnerable to the FOMO and fame-seeking that comes from social media, especially when it is readily available at your fingertips. Way too many people live for that. Shit, it used to just be magazines showing this kind of skiing/boarding. It also doesn’t help when a pandemic like covid has managed to drive that wedge deeper into our society.

Might not have mattered in this latest incident. But looking at the overall trend of deaths this season, it’s definitely something worth considering.

skiATL made a good comment on this:

*snip*
I also agree social media and internet is a huge factor. Easy to get beta to places you may not have the experience for, and easy to get FOMO or kodak courage to post on the gram. Aside from my laziness, it's one reason I took a step back to posting on social media. I never think about that stuff while in the Backcountry as social media is merely an afterthought.

[MitchPee]

Really good stuff in here from a variety of backgrounds and levels of experience. One of the reasons I do enjoy TGR is despite the facade of PBR smashing snow chasing hedonists, there is often a sea of educated voices bringing about a wealthy tomb of knowledge.

We can blame social media, Ikon, crowds, until we turn red in the face, but at the end of the day, the game dun changed and it will continue to change. Objectively speaking the level of discussion, database of the UAC for knowledge, and people getting out there have all been progressing alongside rising participants. We are every day learning more and hopefully can use that knowledge to alter a micro decision to prevent that one domino from falling over in the complex sequence of events in the time-space continuum that usually lead to avalanche fatalities.

All that said, humans die in avalanches because humans are involved. Probability wise, I’m sure most people who consider themselves backcountry skiers at one time or another have been not mitigating risk 100%. I’ll be the first one to put my hand up and say I have done it, even with clients. It’s not a thing I’m happy to admit, but it’s honest and human to say. We often have a very hard time as a species putting ourselves in the position of consequences happening to us in a given moment, because if we knew, we wouldn’t drop in or start skinning. After the energy of this tragedy dissipates (which is amazing to see the ripple effect 1 death produces in 2021 vs say 1998, but that’s another story) hopefully it inspires people to take a step back every now and again. As long as people are here and skiing is fun, we are going to have avalanche deaths. Let’s all just have that one extra discussion or voice in the back of our heads we have to justify, to pay homage to those that drew the card and make this tragedy a little more wholesome.

[zion zig zag]

A truly persistent weak layer is a rare beast for us and we are now seeing the consequences.

Agreed, but I think it's a bit more common outside of the central Wasatch snowzone, in my case the Ogden area mountains. I definitely remember listening to the old Snowbasin snow safety guys talking about how they wouldn't ski x,y and z all season when I was an FNG. I got to hear that a couple of times while I was working there over the years. But I will say, while I think we do tend to hold onto the PWL more often up here, they generally aren't as wide spread as they are in the central Wasatch.

I was in a weird headspace last night. I was getting up early this morning to ski with my kid and his friend. Just meadow skipping in an area I'm familiar with, but still felt uncomfortable. I couldn't sleep and sat in the kitchen looking at this years tours on Gaia, paying attention to aspects, slope shading (if Powdork doesn't think that's a useful tool, he's fuckin crazy), end of day exits while tired, etc. Lot of retro/introspection going on till way too late. I didn't really want to get out today, thought about cancelling this morning and telling him to stay home and chill.

But now, I'm glad we went. A lot of good discussion in the skintrack, a lot of good chances for education and reminders for me. Reflection about how it's nice to just be outside, coming home starving from a long walk, and how that's enough. Snow was dense and fast and made the skiing fun. Good scenery and company.

[beer30]

Terrible news, this cant go on.

[Skidog]

Posted in the slide zone thread, but names released. I didn’t know any of them but man, I’m just having a hard time processing this one for some reason. Friends of friends, all in their 20’s. RIP.

https://www.ksl.com/article/50102621...nyon-avalanche


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All way to young. Thoughts go out to family and friends RIP.

Ill say it yet again. Be FUCKING SAFE OUT THERE MAGS.

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[abraham]

Spent the morning thinking about all this and decided to dig out this old issue of Powder. My thoughts on it below.



This morning I dug out one of the few copies of Powder Magazine I’ve saved over the years, a black and white cover with only words describing its content: “Why Do The Best Skiers Keep Dying?”. That issue is nearly ten years old now. Its opening letter from the editor describes an editorial conference in which frustration boils over and a pen is thrown: “We’re not asking the real question”. It turns out, we still aren’t.

The December 2012 issue followed a string of high-profile ski and snowboard deaths: Jamie Pierre, Sarah Burke, Jim Jack and Greg Costa in the previous 12 months alone. These on the heels of many other high-profile deaths dating back to Doug Coombs in 2006. The opening editors letter asked if it was possible to end these types of deaths. In rhetorical fashion, the answer was “probably not”.

Good stuff, I was digging through some old ski stuff recently and was struck by how many of the featured names from one movie had died skiing since then. I've appreciated all the good conversation in here recently.

Also seeing your name reminded me, did you ski with Eliott D, Chris G and a Dylan who skied at Bridger before Utah?

[rip]

We don't know if that glade was their go-to for years. This speculation is a waste of time on why they were there.

As for people needing to dial down their risk, I see it different. People think what they are doing isn't risky, they think are being safe and smart skirting around hazards, that's the real problem.

I see people breaking down their thought process after an accident, and none of it makes sense to me, it doesn't matter. The bigger picture to me is always, "What were you doing up there though?" The red flags are there to not go: heavy snowfall on a sketchy snowpack less than 24 hours after a storm. I don't care hearing what you did or didn't see on-slope. Because what were you doing up there? Skirting through high avie terrain puts you in a position where bad choices are easier to make after a long skin up. Don't put yourself in that position.

I respect the fact that inexperienced people make small mistakes even if it results in huge consequences, it's how you learn sometimes unfortunately and it's easy to teach them and help them grow. The experienced people have an entirely wrong big picture mindset, which I avoid like the plague. They may ski 100 days a year but I don't know why they are called experts. Repetition does not mean expert skills. Not to say true experts don't die, that is grossly inaccurate of course.

This is good stuff. I was going to post something similar. This whole thread reads like a novel over the past few weeks with the avalanche incidents, the traffic, the storms, the close calls, the shared experiences and now another accident.

Keeping that beginner mindset is unbelievably difficult. Learn from your experiences but understand that you've never skied this slope, under these specific conditions, ever. It's new every single time. I get more cautious as the years go on and part of that is because I fully accept that I'm gonna fuck up and I play out that scenario. Does a fuck up equal possible death and how severe of a fuck up would that take? If the edge is only a minor misstep away I'm only treading into that situation unbelievably carefully or not at all. Because the thing you eventually learn over time is, it's usually not the big line that will get ya, when you're adrenaline is pumping, you're hyper focused and senses are firing on all cylinders.. it's always some mundane little detail, that under the guise of familiarity, where you drop your guard for just a second, that will be your undoing.

Condolences to the victims family and friend and let's all have a safe winter rest of the winter out there!

[telefreewasatch]

Tonight's story is gonna be now on account of a football game.
No irreverence to the deceased or their loved ones intended here.

Christmas day '85 found us with a below average start for snow, and there was no snowmaking then. What we used to do was get on slopes above where snow was needed or a cat could access your pile with visqueen chutes 'Hoop chutes' that we would dig a fall line trough into the snow and shovel snow into. It was always facets so watering it down when applied made it last a lot longer. Overwatering had its downsides.
The Road to Provo was Christmas morning's job, the weather breezy with low clouds.
When we arrived at work there two large boxes of doughnuts from our bros up the road; the Alta ski patrol. So cool. I had two chocolate ones. Awesome gift before some cold grunt work.

Fast forward to April 1st. Me and another fella are on top of Mt. Baldy with patrolman Fog (my namesake). Fog was a stick and stuffing sort of patrolman, who would occasionally hang out where he was highly visible inside of rope lines where they were violated, just not close enough for good scrutiny. On this occasion he was adorned with ski boots and skis and a bamboo brace between the boots. Alta had a few night time poachers on Baldy that year so Fog was there to help. When the Alta Patrol were riding upper Wildcat and the old Collins after their morning meeting, I called them on the radio saying no one at dispatch is answering the phone and we just lost sight of a couple of guys going over Baldy, you might keep an eye out. Fog was on a string aimed down the chute, and I cut the string. He's a pretty light fellow, Fog is, if he'd had a couple of stone more weight his speed would have been better. After a 200' schuss, his tips which we hadn't braced started in towards each other and he made several increasingly short turns and went over the front. Silence on the Alta Radio for a bit. Eric Elison, town Marshall, was viewing from Central with a spotting scope. "They're not moving, what are you guys gonna do?" A hot Doug Christensen, patrol director, wanted to get the Sheriffs Helicopter up there.
Lou Moore chimed in that they "Ought to go the avalauncher and shoot that dummy."
We had to come clean pretty quickly.
As we were descending a very icy W Baldy, John Collins radios me "Jimmy they got us." We just did a pretty good prank, and Collins won't tell me what they did; "You'll have to see this for yourself." On Hidden Peak was a 30"x18" christmas paper wrapped board. On it were three pictures. On the left was a computer generated picture of a girl pushing a wheelbarrow full of candy, a Sweet Tooth certificate. On the right was a chalkboard that said "Merry Christmas and Happy April Fools" above and "Hope You Liked the Doughnuts" below. In the center was a picture of over half of the Alta ski patrol. Bars over the eyes had been generated like a police photo. And they all had their pants down, bent over with a doughnut in their ass.

[schindlerpiste]

HaHaHa

[tele.savalas]

Terrible news, this cant go on.

Sadly, it can and will go on.
As long as people climb, hike, ski in the mountains, people will continue to die. People died long before me, people will die long after I’m gone.

Rest In Powder Louis, Tom, Stephanie and Sarah.



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[Phall]

I love hearing the April fools stories, TFW. I remember reading skiing mag, or maybe it was powder, while in college in the ‘aughts. A few of those stories helped solidify my decision to come to LCC.


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[dfinn]

Beautiful day in the Wasatch. Keeping the surfing going, now more than ever is a great time to enjoy some low angle blue bird pow.

[MTT]

Beautiful day in the Wasatch. Keeping the surfing going, now more than ever is a great time to enjoy some low angle blue bird pow.

Nice! you use Snowshoes for the up?

[Dantheman]

Just found out that two of the victims were friends of friends. Deepest thoughts to everyone grieving today.

[altacoup]

Tonight's story is gonna be now on account of a football game.
No irreverence to the deceased or their loved ones intended here.

Christmas day '85 found us with a below average start for snow, and there was no snowmaking then. What we used to do was get on slopes above where snow was needed or a cat could access your pile with visqueen chutes 'Hoop chutes' that we would dig a fall line trough into the snow and shovel snow into. It was always facets so watering it down when applied made it last a lot longer. Overwatering had its downsides.
The Road to Provo was Christmas morning's job, the weather breezy with low clouds.
When we arrived at work there two large boxes of doughnuts from our bros up the road; the Alta ski patrol. So cool. I had two chocolate ones. Awesome gift before some cold grunt work.

Fast forward to April 1st. Me and another fella are on top of Mt. Baldy with patrolman Fog (my namesake). Fog was a stick and stuffing sort of patrolman, who would occasionally hang out where he was highly visible inside of rope lines where they were violated, just not close enough for good scrutiny. On this occasion he was adorned with ski boots and skis and a bamboo brace between the boots. Alta had a few night time poachers on Baldy that year so Fog was there to help. When the Alta Patrol were riding upper Wildcat and the old Collins after their morning meeting, I called them on the radio saying no one at dispatch is answering the phone and we just lost sight of a couple of guys going over Baldy, you might keep an eye out. Fog was on a string aimed down the chute, and I cut the string. He's a pretty light fellow, Fog is, if he'd had a couple of stone more weight his speed would have been better. After a 200' schuss, his tips which we hadn't braced started in towards each other and he made several increasingly short turns and went over the front. Silence on the Alta Radio for a bit. Eric Elison, town Marshall, was viewing from Central with a spotting scope. "They're not moving, what are you guys gonna do?" A hot Doug Christensen, patrol director, wanted to get the Sheriffs Helicopter up there.
Lou Moore chimed in that they "Ought to go the avalauncher and shoot that dummy."
We had to come clean pretty quickly.
As we were descending a very icy W Baldy, John Collins radios me "Jimmy they got us." We just did a pretty good prank, and Collins won't tell me what they did; "You'll have to see this for yourself." On Hidden Peak was a 30"x18" christmas paper wrapped board. On it were three pictures. On the left was a computer generated picture of a girl pushing a wheelbarrow full of candy, a Sweet Tooth certificate. On the right was a chalkboard that said "Merry Christmas and Happy April Fools" above and "Hope You Liked the Doughnuts" below. In the center was a picture of over half of the Alta ski patrol. Bars over the eyes had been generated like a police photo. And they all had their pants down, bent over with a doughnut in their ass.

Can’t wait for the full behind the scenes story of Snowbird patrols doughnut revenge. I’ve heard so many different versions over the years.