WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

[oldskibum]

Unpredictability of the snowpack compounded by the unpredictability of riders above. Preliminary reports suggest the slide was triggered by a party on the ridge {?} who may or may not have been aware of skiers below. It is so crowded that one must assume traffic from above [or other remote trigger possibilities] and manage route selection accordingly. Makes touring safely under these PWL conditions extra complicated.

[123ski]

While it’s most likely that this particular discussion inevitably ends in ‘agree to disagree’, it’s fair to ask that I define my something else.

I suspect a bigger percentage of backcountry skiers are drawn to the pursuit out of a love/passion/respect for the mountains, and much like you the desire to explore and apply that love/passion/respect to find remote, pristine places to make (more) powder turns or conquer ski mountaineering lines. I was drawn to the backcountry by the added beauty and challenge it applied to a sport I love. Not because of overcrowding.

In a more and more polarized world, where people say things they don’t mean behind the protection of their screen - I can’t tell you how much I truly appreciate the tone and nature of this response and I apologize for any passive aggressive tone in my prior responses.


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[powdork]

I've been quietly reading this thread and there are some really good posts/discussion (as well as overly vocal clueless ones) about yesterday's accident but this is a leap too far.

Perhaps not in this case, but it's not implausible that it could be a reason why more seem to be travelling in the bc on higher danger days. COVID could certainly be another reason whether it's the worry of catching it, worry of adding to the problem of transmission, or just not wanting to deal with any additional inconveniences of covid regulations. From that aspect touring seems to be the responsible move.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

If all your cohorts are going out on high/extreme days the unifying problem is them. It's asinine, and wildly entitled to blame a ski area for people making poor decisions in the bc.

And really, do you honestly think people who own resorts are going to radically change their business model to save a few lives a year? That, is, uh, never, ever, ever going to happen. Why even bother putting energy into this thought process? Devote your time to organizing a bake sale for your avy center or something useful at least.

[123ski]

Perhaps not in this case, but it's not implausible that it could be a reason why more seem to be travelling in the bc on higher danger days. COVID could certainly be another reason whether it's the worry of catching it, worry of adding to the problem of transmission, or just not wanting to deal with any additional inconveniences of covid regulations. From that aspect touring seems to be the responsible move.

Well said. I’m not necessarily trying to tie this incident to Ikon, but rather address the larger issue, and strongly believe ikon is one of the major contributing factors. Thanks for clarifying for me


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[123ski]

If all your cohorts are going out on high/extreme days the unifying problem is them. It's asinine, and wildly entitled to blame a ski area for people making poor decisions in the bc.

And really, do you honestly think people who own resorts are going to radically change their business model to save a few lives a year? That, is, uh, never, ever, ever going to happen. Why even bother putting energy into this thought process? Devote your time to organizing a bake sale for your avy center or something useful at least.

Which resort do you work for? Your self interest is showing


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

I think it’s the narcissistic social media culture that drives all users into the backcountry. It’s cool. It’s not powder, more often than not you’re skiing marginal wild snow, wind board, crusts etc. I wonder what constitutes an experienced or very experienced bc skiers in the context of these news and avalanche reports? Is it self proclaimed?

The industry hype machine is also driving people to ski in the backcountry. When was the last time you saw media that portrayed skiing bumps, crud, groomers and wind buff as cool?


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[123ski]

I think it’s the narcissistic social media culture that drives all users into the backcountry. It’s cool. It’s not powder, more often than not you’re skiing marginal wild snow, wind board, crusts etc. I wonder what constitutes an experienced or very experienced bc skiers in the context of these news and avalanche reports? Is it self proclaimed?

The industry hype machine is also driving people to ski in the backcountry. When was the last time you saw media that portrayed skiing bumps, crud, groomers and wind buff as cool?


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I 100% agree that this is a major problem.

Maybe Marcus Carson can save everyone with the Return of the Turn series.


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[brutah]

Perhaps not in this case, but it's not implausible that it could be a reason why more seem to be travelling in the bc on higher danger days. COVID could certainly be another reason whether it's the worry of catching it, worry of adding to the problem of transmission, or just not wanting to deal with any additional inconveniences of covid regulations. From that aspect touring seems to be the responsible move.

Maybe.

overall I think people these days look for any leap they can make that backs up their current narrative. Whether that's political or their hate for a specific ski pass. In this case, people have been bitching about overcrowding at ski resorts for as long as I've been skiing (30+ yrs) so this dude thinks he's got another piece to go in his puzzle to get rid of multi-resort passes.

It's an illogical leap to blame ski area's looking to maximize profits for the deaths of avy victims, regardless of what drew those people to backcountry skiing. I think all people are responsible for their own decisions, good or bad.

[skiATL]

This shit has now come full circle.... The PWL and recent avy deaths is all the ikon pass' fault.

GTFO with this bullshit. What a stupid post.

I've been quietly reading this thread and there are some really good posts/discussion (as well as overly vocal clueless ones) about yesterday's accident but this is a leap too far.

Vibes to the victims and their families in yesterday's accident. Many of us are grieving for those lost, both yesterday's accident and the prior week, and I've had some good private conversations within my ski circle. Stay safe out there.

I agree 100% here. We are all shocked by this incident, and we are all searching for answers of how and why. Of course most of those answers will become more evident once a full report is released and real discussion can commence. There has been some good discussion here, but in the absence of details of the events it has quickly devolved into blaming ikon passes and even suggesting a China style one-child policy as a solution(somewhat tongue-in-cheek here). We can bring this conversation back down to earth for a bit, and it should be much easier once we have real data and information from which to form a more complete picture of the accident. There are certainly issues with epic/ikon, but I think the solutions to those problems, while related in some ways, are mostly an apples to oranges relationship to current backcountry incidents. My condolences and prayers to the victims, their families, and all 8nvolved. Truly a terrible event.


As for reasons for people to go in the backcountry, cheaper, far more accessible, and lighter gear is prob a much bigger draw for backcountry users than resort overcrowding. Add in that touring has become increasingly more mainstream. Years ago, ski mags and ski movies didn't pay that much attention to touring, and now it's a major feature.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Which resort do you work for? Your self interest is showing

Shit. I'm Rob Katz. You got me.

[123ski]

Maybe.

overall I think people these days look for any leap they can make that backs up their current narrative. Whether that's political or their hate for a specific ski pass. In this case, people have been bitching about overcrowding at ski resorts for as long as I've been skiing (30+ yrs) so this dude thinks he's got another piece to go in his puzzle to get rid of multi-resort passes.

It's an illogical leap to blame ski area's looking to maximize profits for the deaths of avy victims, regardless of what drew those people to backcountry skiing. I think all people are responsible for their own decisions, good or bad.

When did I directly blame the resorts for the deaths?

I was pointing to a well known problem that is contributing to the number of expert skiers in the backcountry, especially on high danger days.

Only part of my solution was ikon based. The rest was asking for more inbounds acreage due to population growth.


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[123ski]

Shit. I'm Rob Katz. You got me.

Lol - the only better response would have been Rusty Gregory


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[MultiVerse]

I think it’s the narcissistic social media culture that drives all users into the backcountry. It’s cool. It’s not powder, more often than not you’re skiing marginal wild snow, wind board, crusts etc. I wonder what constitutes an experienced or very experienced bc skiers in the context of these news and avalanche reports? Is it self proclaimed?

The industry hype machine is also driving people to ski in the backcountry. When was the last time you saw media that portrayed skiing bumps, crud, groomers and wind buff as cool?

Social media is the reason for a lot of people. For others the worst BC day is better than the best resort day.

There's the photo a few pages back of the group bunched together even though everybody knows you should spread out. The reason why that happens is it's a lot fun talking shit with friends. There's a huge social aspect to backcountry skiing. With the right group touring uphill is as fun as skiing downhill.

[JTG4]

There are certainly issues with epic/ikon, but I think the solutions to those problems, while related in some ways, are mostly an apples to oranges relationship to current backcountry incidents.

+1 (on your entire post)

When was the last year that such pervasive PWL issues existed?

[Brock Landers]

I’d blame the Internet more than ikon. You’re a half “expert” after reading up on a few things, and the advertising of awesome snow and turns is just too much. Couple that with global warming making it a tough snow year, same global warming making the bad snow year a poor snow pack, and on and on we go. The resorts may seem full because of covid restictions (blame that too) but Christ they limit the # of cars in the Alta lot. It’s no more crowded that other years. Probably less.

In the end it’s personal responsibility and accountability. That’s it. Shame to conflate other shit with that as a legitimate excuse.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

In the end it’s personal responsibility and accountability.

100% this.

[Boissal]

+1 (on your entire post)

When was the last year that such pervasive PWL issues existed?

It happens every 2-3 years but I can't say I remember it ever being this bad. Maybe because during the last few instances there were fewer people out and about and fewer opportunities for rolls of the die to go wrong.

[Brock Landers]

It happens every 2-3 years but I can't say I remember it ever being this bad. Maybe because during the last few instances there were fewer people out and about and fewer opportunities for rolls of the die to go wrong.

Excluding the deaths and reported slides, have you guys seen snowpacks like this every few years? Or is this snowpack like once in a 10/20/50 year event

[itsnowjoke]

My deepest condolences go out to the victims’ families and friends. A lot of good discussion and introspection is contained on this thread. Many of us have spent multiple decades at this game, and are kidding ourselves if we think that we are superior decision makers. Dumb luck plays a huge part as well. All of us have made bad decisions, and if you don’t think you have, you are fooling yourself. The latest incident on Square Top resonates with me, because sometimes my partners need to reign me in a bit. If someone in your group has an uneasy feeling, go with it; the mountains will be there another day. I’m actually surprised that incidents like yesterdays aren’t happening more often. On this forum and others, there are examples of an absolute blatant disregard for backcountry safety and etiquette. Yesterday’s picture of multiple parties ascending Mt. Superior was a textbook example of multiple scenarios for disaster; parties stacked on top of each other in extreme avalanche terrain, a party about to drop in from above, poor choice of route. All of the elements for tragedy were there, yet everyone walked away unscathed. Luck. The latest Dutch’s Draw fatality involved a skier dropping in and riding the same slope as her partner at the same time. I’ve witnessed similar behavior so many times without consequences that I’m just dumbfounded that more burials haven’t occurred on a yearly basis. Be safe out there. And may a fair amount of luck favor you.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Social media is the reason for a lot of people. For others the worst BC day is better than the best resort day.

There's the photo a few pages back of the group bunched together even though everybody knows you should spread out. The reason why that happens is it's a lot fun talking shit with friends. There's a huge social aspect to backcountry skiing. With the right group touring uphill is as fun as skiing downhill.

I should have clarified, I really meant new users from all groups of winter recreation.

The social aspect is fun but I get uncomfortable with more than 3-4 people.


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[skiATL]

+1 (on your entire post)

When was the last year that such pervasive PWL issues existed?

I'll defer to older guys here with more history. I've only been here since 2014. I remember PWL healing a lot more quickly and repeaters being a bigger issue than widespread PWL. Early 2017-2018 was a bad snow year and there were lots of PWL issues until we had rain to 11,000 that welded everything in place. 2012 was similar to this year as well.

I also agree social media and internet is a huge factor. Easy to get beta to places you may not have the experience for, and easy to get FOMO or kodak courage to post on the gram. Aside from my laziness, it's one reason I took a step back to posting on social media. I never think about that stuff while in the Backcountry as social media is merely an afterthought.

[JTG4]

Superior was a textbook example of multiple scenarios for disaster; parties stacked on top of each other in extreme avalanche terrain, a party about to drop in from above, poor choice of route. All of the elements for tragedy were there, yet everyone walked away unscathed. Luck.

And Cardiac released 500’ wide yesterday. Luck and timing, or more specifically bad timing you were lucky enough to avoid.

[muted]

We don't know if that glade was their go-to for years. This speculation is a waste of time on why they were there.

As for people needing to dial down their risk, I see it different. People think what they are doing isn't risky, they think are being safe and smart skirting around hazards, that's the real problem.

I see people breaking down their thought process after an accident, and none of it makes sense to me, it doesn't matter. The bigger picture to me is always, "What were you doing up there though?" The red flags are there to not go: heavy snowfall on a sketchy snowpack less than 24 hours after a storm. I don't care hearing what you did or didn't see on-slope. Because what were you doing up there? Skirting through high avie terrain puts you in a position where bad choices are easier to make after a long skin up. Don't put yourself in that position.

I respect the fact that inexperienced people make small mistakes even if it results in huge consequences, it's how you learn sometimes unfortunately and it's easy to teach them and help them grow. The experienced people have an entirely wrong big picture mindset, which I avoid like the plague. They may ski 100 days a year but I don't know why they are called experts. Repetition does not mean expert skills. Not to say true experts don't die, that is grossly inaccurate of course.

[bthomson22]

It is quite possible that neither my view

“that crowding is what leads people to backcountry skiing”;

or your view

“That something else besides over crowding, but definitely not over crowding, but something else I didn’t define in my counter argument”

Is correct.

It would be interesting to determine what the actual motivating factor is for a majority of people. I’d still contend that it is overcrowding, but that’s just from my life experience which is obviously different than yours.


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FWIW, I represented this exact case yesterday. My girlfriend and I made plans to wake up early, go tour in one of the low-angle spots we are familiar with until crowds subsided, and then spend the rest of the afternoon skiing the resort.

We got up at 7, saw how backed up the line was, said no way and made a decision to head back. On the way home, we thought "hey why not check out Millcreek?" So that's what we did. Neither of us had ever been up above the road in Porter Fork, but yesterday we did.

We putzed around and found some low angle shots. We were able to keep it mellow. Shot slope angles with a clino rather than using maps. Once we got back to the car we saw SAR flying up the road and helis above. We weren't the only ones in there, either. We saw maybe 5-6 parties between the meadow and the pass west of Raymond.

Ultimately, I'm not blaming Ikon pass. But I can say traffic absolutely affected our decision to ski in an area we wouldn't normally. But, we relied on conservative decision making and had a fun, safe day. It's easy to see how you could be tricked into skiing something more dangerous, though. This congestion problem isn't going away, Ikon or not, so we need to be more aware than ever of our decision making.