Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties

[spanghew]

Finished it. Liked it a lot.

Wasn't particularly aware of the details of the case prior to reading the book - I knew the basics of the murders, but nothing beyond that. I'm not sure if that made the book better or worse; it didn't really shake up everything I'd previously held to be true about the crime since all I really knew going into it was that Manson convinced some groupies to go kill Sharon Tate, among others. But the revelations (thin as they may be) about the connections to MK Ultra and various other FBI and CIA programs was really interesting. Even though the whole argument is a bit tenuous, it seems pretty likely that something fucky was going on, and it certainly makes for an interesting story.

Mostly, I thought O'neill did a really good job of presenting his research - it's very readable. And even though plenty of it ventured kind of far out there into conspiracy theory land, it never felt like he was overselling the information he was presenting.

for a slightly different take, check out Jerzy Kosinski's Blind Date. Among other adventures (including skiing), he's en route to visit an old friend near LA when his baggage gets lost, saving his life . . .

https://planetpeschel.com/2008/08/ch...kosinski-1969/

So he narrates the Manson murders from the point of view of his old friend, who died protecting Tate and was stabbed over a hundred times . . .

[Dantheman]

Wasn't particularly aware of the details of the case prior to reading the book - I knew the basics of the murders, but nothing beyond that. I'm not sure if that made the book better or worse; it didn't really shake up everything I'd previously held to be true about the crime since all I really knew going into it was that Manson convinced some groupies to go kill Sharon Tate, among others.

Yeah, same here. Prior to reading the book I had no idea that Manson was at-large for three months after the murders. Nor was I aware that the Spahn Ranch was subjected to a massive raid shortly after the murders, where LASO found copious evidence of criminal activity, but LASO arrested no one. That is just insane when placed in the context of the Gary Hinman murder investigation and that Manson and the Ranch had been under active surveillance for months prior to the murders. That, plus the gross misconduct by the DA's office and Bugliosi's mental illness is a crazy story all on its own.

The Dennis Wilson connection is also pretty wild.

But the revelations (thin as they may be) about the connections to MK Ultra and various other FBI and CIA programs was really interesting. Even though the whole argument is a bit tenuous, it seems pretty likely that something fucky was going on, and it certainly makes for an interesting story.

There's just no way a guy like Manson can violate Federal parole over and over like that without being protected by someone on high, even if you ignore the fact that his parole officer, Roger Smith, was almost certainly a CIA agent. Even though he was never able to directly connect Manson to Jolly West and MKUltra, the correspondence O'Neill found between West and Sidney Gottleib is profound since it directly contradicts West's lifetime of denials and the CIA's claims that MKUltra was an abject failure. And, I mean, Jolly West inserts himself as Jack Ruby's psychiatrist, goes into an interrogation room alone with Jack Ruby and Ruby just happens to have a complete psychotic break in those few hours? That's one hell of a fucking coincidence.

Mostly, I thought O'neill did a really good job of presenting his research - it's very readable. And even though plenty of it ventured kind of far out there into conspiracy theory land, it never felt like he was overselling the information he was presenting.

Agreed. That's what makes it such great reporting--while he admits to all the conspiratorial rabbit holes his mind went down, ultimately he doesn't make any claims he can't back up with documents and on-the-record statements.

Also, what the fuck is on those Tex Watson tapes?

[toast2266]

There's just no way a guy like Manson can violate Federal parole over and over like that without being protected by someone on high, even if you ignore the fact that his parole officer, Roger Smith, was almost certainly a CIA agent. Even though he was never able to directly connect Manson to Jolly West and MKUltra, the correspondence O'Neill found between West and Sidney Gottleib is profound since it directly contradicts West's lifetime of denials and the CIA's claims that MKUltra was an abject failure. And, I mean, Jolly West inserts himself as Jack Ruby's psychiatrist, goes into an interrogation room alone with Jack Ruby and Ruby just happens to have a complete psychotic break in those few hours? That's one hell of a fucking coincidence.

Yeah, agreed on all of that. I try to ascribe to "don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity" (or in this case, maybe just hazy memories). Which keeps me pretty skeptical about the whole thing.

But still, like you said, there's an awful lot of coincidences in there. It seems reasonably safe to say that a lot of what the CIA did during that era looks incredibly shitty, at least through the filter of time. I wonder if the organization is doing less shitty things these days, or if they're just more discrete about it.

[Dantheman]

I'm definitely a heavy user of Hanlon's Razor. But, while all the records from CHAOS were destroyed and most from MKUltra, lots survived from COINTELPRO and you kind of have to assume that the CIA was being at least as shitty as the FBI.

[ötzi]

Ice? Toast? HAB? Bueller?

Ha, kind of had a lot to do the past few weeks, like ridiculous busy moving out of our house of 20 years and all but tomorrow I pick it back up.

[Buster Highmen]

Ha, kind of had a lot to do the past few weeks, like ridiculous busy moving out of our house of 20 years and all but tomorrow I pick it back up.

congrats on the sale.

[Dantheman]

Ha, kind of had a lot to do the past few weeks, like ridiculous busy moving out of our house of 20 years and all but tomorrow I pick it back up.

Oh righ, forgot about that. Yeah, that will consume every waking moment you have.

[babybear]

I am 3/4 of the way through this one and just started a couple days ago.
It’s a page turner like I’m excited when I wake up in the middle of the night so I can read more.
I knew the gist of the story/ murders prior but not super deep knowledge. And I had bought it awhile ago when you guys started this thread, but I wasn’t sure I was into reading about grisly murders so put it further down the list. But dang started it and was hooked within the first pages.
Maybe weird book to give for Christmas? But also such a good read for book loving friends/family

[Rideski]

So wasn’t Sharon Tate’s granddaughter just killed by stabbing a few days ago?

[babybear]

She never had any children bc she was killed 2 wks before giving birth. But just googled and looks like it’s a LiBianca descendant. Bummer. Death by stabbing seems to be a bad way to go

[east or bust]

Listened to this JRE podcast a month or two ago and have been meaning to check out the book. But now that I know a couple of you have read it I’ll have to get a copy. I thought the podcast was crazy, can’t wait to read the book

[buttahflake]

Tedious and convoluted with no aha moment. Seemed like a personal vendetta against Bugliosi.
2/5 would not recommend

[idahospud]

Tedious and convoluted with no aha moment. Seemed like a personal vendetta against Bugliosi.
2/5 would not recommend

This was my take on it, too. Super interesting premise but it felt like it was never tied together with anything more than speculation.

[HAB]

Ice? Toast? HAB? Bueller?

Thread fell off my radar somehow, sorry.

I guess where I end up on it is basically as follows:

1) The research that went into the book is incredible.
2) The conclusions that it reaches aren't as satisfying as I'd like, but it's probably the case that it's just not possible to do better at this point. The dwindling number of people who might know more aren't inclined to talk, and memories are hazy and clouded by decades of running with a specific narrative.
3) While a number of the ideas presented are verging into conspiracy theory territory, O'Neill does a good job of not overplaying his hand, and presents them as "this *could* have happened", "I wonder about this" etc.
4) It's a good reminder that the CIA was engaging in all kinds of wild fuckery at that point. Exactly how that touches on this case is a little hazier, and we kinda already knew that in general, but good lord.

[Rideski]

She never had any children bc she was killed 2 wks before giving birth. But just googled and looks like it’s a LiBianca descendant. Bummer. Death by stabbing seems to be a bad way to go

But just a random coincidence? I read the article the day after it was posted but seemed like they were leaving plenty of room to suggest a vendetta hit.

[Dantheman]

This was my take on it, too. Super interesting premise but it felt like it was never tied together with anything more than speculation.

Oh FFS. While O'Neill acknowledges the rabbit holes his mind went down, there's no neat conclusion precisely because he doesn't make any claims he can't back up with documents and on-the-record statements. Unfortunately, too many documents were destroyed and too many people are dead or unwilling to talk to put a nice bow on the whole thing. That said, remember, the book implicates numerous prominent people, many of whom are still alive, in serious crimes, including perjury in a capital case, and yet precisely no one has sued O'Neill or Little Brown for defamation.

Now, if we want engage in speculation: the HAFMC, which had been operating for over 50 years, closed in July 2019 barely a month after the book was released. Make of that what you will.

[Dantheman]

4) It's a good reminder that the CIA was engaging in all kinds of wild fuckery at that point. Exactly how that touches on this case is a little hazier, and we kinda already knew that in general, but good lord.

Like I said before, the correspondence O'Neill found between Jolly West and Sidney Gottleib is profound.

[HAB]

Like I said before, the correspondence O'Neill found between Jolly West and Sidney Gottleib is profound.

I need to reread that part. It's been a while, and I was recovering from surgery to repair a tibial plateau fracture at the time, and was pretty drugged up myself.

[lafnian1990]

So witnessed, said the Valkyrie, his commanding tones muffled through the glass. "We see all, Orhaft Stoneback. We will remember whether you kept your vow this day. Does your charge know the risks? I cannot promise their safe return. No living mortal has ever set foot in Starnheim." Is this the climax?

[Core Shot]

So witnessed, said the Valkyrie, his commanding tones muffled through the glass. "We see all, Orhaft Stoneback. We will remember whether you kept your vow this day. Does your charge know the risks? I cannot promise their safe return. No living mortal has ever set foot in Starnheim." Is this the climax?

Wow. Just wow.

What an amazing bot post.
Not the right thread jong. Take it to the nerd gamer thread.