opinions on bd helios bindings

[mall walker]

What holds the climber flap in place on helio 180’s/trofeos?
Do they have a tiny magnet like the 200’s, or just a detent or friction fit?

The "high riser" fits semi-snugly between the pins in regular climbing mode, so kind of a friction fit. It's easy enough in my experience to lift up with a ski pole, but mine have stayed in place so far. There's nothing holding the flap down in the 180º "high riser" mode, but I have not used that yet so can't speak to how it stays put.

I've not generally had a problem with any of the race-style flaps moving out of place on me though on the Trabs, Plums, ATKs, etc

[fleaches]

That spacer is designed to click into the Core binding.
Maybe you could jerry rig a mounting system somehow, but the height might still be too thick for the 180.

I know they make a couple different models of spacer, but I thought the "universal" one could be incorporated into most bindings? Maybe it's just too thick.

Interested in this idea also if it turns out you can fit one.

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[riff]

Thanks guys, I’m curious because after a couple of seasons, 2/3 of my MTN bindings have loose flippy lifters that move when i walk- I’m interested in going to the helios, but i was hoping something besides friction was holding that lifter.


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[mall walker]

^ as in they expose the pins and you step into ski mode while touring? that sounds annoying af, though I haven’t had that with any heel flaps I’ve used. can you tighten the screw?

if you REALLY don’t want that to happen get Plums, the fuckers are nearly impossible to lift up without your glove (friction based). The Trabs have some sort of spring loading snapping mechanism which is the most well-engineered feeling. My ATKs are the 2nd nicest to use after the trabs... they have loosened a bit after 120k’+ or so, but that’s mostly in the screw, the friction mechanism is fine, and they aren’t so welded in there that I need to bend down and use my hand, which is nice imo (I like to lift the flaps with my pole handle, step in, then fiddle with my boots and rip skins etc). I do worry a little because it seems like re-tightening the screw will be next to impossible but so far so good...

[mall walker]

also see the official ATK thread for pics of the heel riser modes, for those who have asked

[galibier_numero_un]

also see the official ATK thread for pics of the heel riser modes, for those who have asked

I put a link to this thread on the first post of the ATK thread, since it's likely both threads will see overlapping action.

... Thom

[Jonathan S.]

I know they make a couple different models of spacer, but I thought the "universal" one could be incorporated into most bindings? Maybe it's just too thick.

Interested in this idea also if it turns out you can fit one.

Whoops, I'm sorry, you're right on that -- my fault for texting quickly from the skintrack.

So the ATK AL05 requires a min 14.5mm gap.
Measuring my Alien 3.0 in a 145/180/Trofeo w/o plate = 11mm. Tried an old TLT5 out of curiosity and got 8mm.
Add 5.5 for the adjustment plate, and depending on the particular boot's rocker, rubber thickness, heel insert position, etc. ... the spacer might fit -- or might not!

[Gunks_Jesse]

it’s just friction on the Helio bindings. I’ve skied the Helio 200 and one of the lifters on the heel flipped around constantly. I kept stepping into the heel piece while touring and had to flip the heel around. The rise still flipped around but at least I just went from elevated to flat instead of clicking in. Some of the ATK models use a magnet to keep that from happening.

Thanks guys, I’m curious because after a couple of seasons, 2/3 of my MTN bindings have loose flippy lifters that move when i walk- I’m interested in going to the helios, but i was hoping something besides friction was holding that lifter.


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[Jonathan S.]

The tightness of the pivot for the heel flap on the 110 and 145/180 can be adjusted with an easily accessible torx-head bolt.
So if a flap is flipping up during skinning, just tighten up the bolt a bit.

[riff]

This is good news.


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[Nevada29er]

My first foray into flippy twisty pin bindings with the Alpinist. Really like how it skis for a pin binding, but not super impressed with the fiddle factor of having to twist the heel to go between ski/med and flat/high settings. The risers are a bit tricky to flip with a ski pole too.

Yes, race mode works pretty well assuming you have a decent range of motion in your angle/boot. However, coming off the Tecton, with a heavy bulky alpine heel, I have to give the nod in "tourability" to that binding which surprised me (weight not withstanding). Should be able to rip skins without removing skis or having to reach down with much effort to turn the heel by hand.

Even my old dynafit Verts were easier to work with in terms of heel rotation. IMO, a touring binding should be functional without having to remove the ski or reach down with your hand. Everything should be accessible from your pole. Yet all these new gen bindings don't work this way. What am I missing?

[NWFlow]

Agreed. Still haven't found anything to match my old verticals in functionality

[riff]

Salomon MTN for fully pole based transitions.
I think to go any lighter than that, the utter simplicity takes some adaptations of your technique. I can’t rip skins with a pole yet, so I lift my foot, rotate the heel, switch boots into ski mode, slide my hand back to the tail clip of the skins. This the raw limit of my flexibility of course[emoji6] but it feels good and works fast. As for needing rotation by hand for individual riser height, that’s certainly not ideal.


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[galibier_numero_un]

My first foray into flippy twisty pin bindings with the Alpinist. Really like how it skis for a pin binding, but not super impressed with the fiddle factor of having to twist the heel to go between ski/med and flat/high settings. The risers are a bit tricky to flip with a ski pole too.

Yes, race mode works pretty well assuming you have a decent range of motion in your angle/boot. However, coming off the Tecton, with a heavy bulky alpine heel, I have to give the nod in "tourability" to that binding which surprised me (weight not withstanding). Should be able to rip skins without removing skis or having to reach down with much effort to turn the heel by hand.

Even my old dynafit Verts were easier to work with in terms of heel rotation. IMO, a touring binding should be functional without having to remove the ski or reach down with your hand. Everything should be accessible from your pole. Yet all these new gen bindings don't work this way. What am I missing?

I love my Vipec Blacks, and yes, the forced choice with the Helio 200s is a bit of a nuisance (spin for flat/med-high vs. race style), but you still have to reach down to transition between ski and tour mode on Vipecs and Tectons.

It sounds as if you want the Raider 12s/R12s (or their "14" equivalents) with the double flippys - that, or Plum Guides based on your comments about Verticals.

All 3 choices (including Vipec/Tecton) are good ones, with slightly different operational features.

I have to say however, that the 400g per ski weight savings of the Helio 200/180 is very, very nice.

... Thom

[mall walker]

^ yeah with the ATKs you only pay the bend-over price switching to/from flat mode, which for me is typically 0-1 times per tour.

it is annoying if you have to do a lot of to/from flat mode though, depending on where you normally go I could see that changing my daily driver binding choice.

[galibier_numero_un]

^ yeah with the ATKs you only pay the bend-over price switching to/from flat mode, which for me is typically 0-1 times per tour.

it is annoying if you have to do a lot of to/from flat mode though, depending on where you normally go I could see that changing my daily driver binding choice.

Yeah, I've found myself doing the 180 at the beginning (pins rearward), since that medium-high flippy position isn't all that high, and if I find myself having to drop over a log, I flip into flat mode so I don't stress the flippy. This may not matter, since the flippy seems to sit on the pins when the pins are forward, but just barely.

In any event, the only reverso I have to do then is when ripping skins.

... Thom

[TG]

yeah the reason the 145 can weigh 145 is that they stripped off luxuries like being able to rotate with a pole. decide what is more important to you and proceed from there. personally the inconvenience of bending down a couple times a day is worth the benefit that a significant weight saving gives me over thousands of strides per day.

I have a hard time reaching straight down to do the twist, much easier to push the ski to be adjusted forward and kneel down on the back leg.

But, I’ve also come to appreciate the reminder that I need to maintain my flexibility as I get old.

[Jason4]

What’s the verdict on the useability of the brakes on Helio 350s? I could go either way on the extra weight of the brakes but I’m mounting these to some x106 waisted skis and using Hawk XTDs so I’m not planning on jogging in Lycra. Is there a lot of fiddle factor to getting the brakes to stay locked while touring and to unlock for skiing? If so then I’ll just stick with B&D leashes and call it good.

[Benneke10]

What’s the verdict on the useability of the brakes on Helio 350s? I could go either way on the extra weight of the brakes but I’m mounting these to some x106 waisted skis and using Hawk XTDs so I’m not planning on jogging in Lycra. Is there a lot of fiddle factor to getting the brakes to stay locked while touring and to unlock for skiing? If so then I’ll just stick with B&D leashes and call it good.

I use the ATK Crest which has the same brakes. You definitely get what you pay for with the minimal weight. They only weigh like 30g so they're better than nothing and probably better than anything else at that weight but the performance isn't great. The button can freeze up making them near impossible to unlock sometimes. Even when the button is working properly, they can be annoying to unlock when you're transitioning if you aren't taking your skis off. I almost never bothered to engage the brakes on mine and eventually just took them off. While there is a fiddle factor for UNlocking the brake, they will always stay locked when you want them too. I had G3 Ions before these, and they were so annoying when the brake engaged when skinning. That never happens with the ATK brakes.

I will probably put them on this winter for certain days where I don't want leashes. They are really easy to take on and off.

[galibier_numero_un]

What’s the verdict on the useability of the brakes on Helio 350s? I could go either way on the extra weight of the brakes but I’m mounting these to some x106 waisted skis and using Hawk XTDs so I’m not planning on jogging in Lycra. Is there a lot of fiddle factor to getting the brakes to stay locked while touring and to unlock for skiing? If so then I’ll just stick with B&D leashes and call it good.

Raider-12s, Helio 350, Voyager, Hagan, etc.

The locking mechanism is as described above. It's a solid latching system. ATK seemed to prioritize this over a brake that's easier to lock/unlock, which is a good decision in my book. Ease of use is defeated if your brakes pop down on the "up", as is prevalent with some binders.

How much fiddling these are is a personal thing. If you don't remove your skis on the transition to the "down", it's a bit of a stretch to pop them into ski mode.

I just mounted a pair of last year's Raider-12s to my new, +10 GPOs, so while I have no field experience with them, it's easy to tell how they compare from a spring force perspective with the ultra-flimsy (nearly useless) Dynafit Verticals and my more robust (but not perfect) Black Vipecs. The ATK brakes seem to fall between the two in terms of the spring force with which they engage.

At the end of the day, we're not going to see super-robust brakes on a 300-400g touring binding, and my default position is to mount leashes to my boots instead of my skis, so I can engage them with any of my skis if the situation calls for it (quickly connecting them at the top of a sketchy transition where a lost ski would really suck).

This Summer, I popped the brakes off these Raider-12s and weighed them. I'm going from memory, but they were within 2g. of my B&D leashes which are on the heavy side for leashes. Both the brake assembly and the leashes were a touch under 50g. per pair.

Know that Moment sells the ATK brake cover plate for the Voyager, if you decide to remove the brakes. Since I don't have experience with these binders yet, I can't say how prone to icing this area would be if you didn't install the cover plate.

I don't experience as much icing with my gear, compared with some reports, but we're talking about a Colorado snow pack, so I'd take the area they're used in, into consideration. I can see where that latch could ice up in some circumstances, and I'm still debating whether I want to remove the brakes and install the cover plate. This Winter will tell that story.

... Thom

[Jason4]

Thank you both! Good info.