Electric car thread

[schindlerpiste]

I wonder whether we should start a Hydrogen vehicle thread. BMW, Porsche and other pricey auto makers are going away from electric and into hydrogen and/or 6 stroke engines. I have read that electric vehicle sales are way down and continue to dwindle. It seems that installing all these EV charging stations was myopic. Costly mining and questionable environmental benefits are giving a lot of manufacturer's headaches and cold feet regarding future sales. I read somewhere (I can try to find the article) that Porsche has parking lots filled with Tacans and Teslas that no one wants.

[MarcusBrody]

I wonder whether we should start a Hydrogen vehicle thread. BMW, Porsche and other pricey auto makers are going away from electric and into hydrogen. I have read that electric vehicle sales are way down and continue to dwindle. It seems that installing all these EV charging stations was myopic. Costly mining and questionable environmental benefits are giving a lot of manufacturer's headaches and cold feet regarding future sales. I read somewhere (I can try to find the article) that Porsche has parking lots filled with Tacans and Teslas that no one wants.

Link:

According to new estimates from Kelley Blue Book, electric vehicle (EV) sales in the U.S. grew by 11% year over year in the third quarter and reached record highs for both volume and market share. According to the latest counts, an estimated 346,3091 EVs were sold in Q3 2024, a 5% increase from Q2. The EV share of sales in Q3 hit 8.9%, the highest level recorded and an increase from 7.8% in Q3 2023.

I definitely think some manufacturers are having issues with EV sales. There was a rush during covid/early adoption to create high cost, high performance, high profit EVs. Or just the first and last. Mercedes, for instance, came out with new EVs that were...fine? But I think they've had a hard time differentiating them from lower cost EVs, so the prices new look insane so they sit on lots. Ford came out with the F-150 Lightning at what looked like was going to be an affordable price point, but then quickly jacked its price due to both production costs and COVID buyers/early adopters being willing to pay it. I see an increasing number of EVs around me, though. Lots of Teslas as a bigger group can afford them used and an increasing number of midrange EVs like the Kona, Ioniq 5, ID.4, etc..

[schindlerpiste]

OK, but then there is this:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ys-2024-09-19/

and this

https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news-a...her-in-october

[J. Barron DeJong]

OK, but then there is this:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ys-2024-09-19/

and this

https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news-a...her-in-october

I’d be more interested to know how EV sales in Europe and Japan have dropped relative to other cars in the same price range. If the overall market is down, I wouldn’t be surprised if more expensive cars took a bigger sales hit, and EVs are on average more expensive options.

Saw a chart a while ago showing that EV sales in the US were up for everyone… except Tesla.

[MarcusBrody]

OK, but then there is this:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ys-2024-09-19/

and this

https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news-a...her-in-october

I’d be more interested to know how EV sales in Europe and Japan have dropped relative to other cars in the same price range. If the overall market is down, I wouldn’t be surprised if more expensive cars took a bigger sales hit, and EVs are on average more expensive options.

Saw a chart a while ago showing that EV sales in the US were up for everyone… except Tesla.

The article says that overall car sales were down in Europe, but less so than EV sales. I think there is a typo in Schilderspiste's article though where it claims that hydrogen sales were 31% of the market. Based on the graphics, I strongly suspect that it's 3.1%. That's about all the space in the "other" category (Which probably also includes LPG cars) with Electric- Plug in - Hybrid - Diesel - and Petrol percentages being labeled.

The articles also explain that part of the drop is likely due to 1. Europe putting big tariffs on cheap chinese EVs. 2. Japan having not enough supply for foreign EVs, for which the article notes that there is strong demand.

[J. Barron DeJong]

The article says that overall car sales were down in Europe, but less so than EV sales. I think there is a typo in Schilderspiste's article though where it claims that hydrogen sales were 31% of the market. Based on the graphics, I strongly suspect that it's 3.1%. That's about all the space in the "other" category (Which probably also includes LPG cars) with Electric- Plug in - Hybrid - Diesel - and Petrol percentages being labeled.

The articles also explain that part of the drop is likely due to 1. Europe putting big tariffs on cheap chinese EVs. 2. Japan having not enough supply for foreign EVs, for which the article notes that there is strong demand.

Yeah, I saw that overall car sales are down in Europe, I just would like to know how the drop in gas cars dropped across the various price ranges, because I’d assume the drop isn’t uniform. (But I’m not interested enough to try to find the answer…)

[MontuckyFried]

Stopped at a Kia dealer this weekend to scope out the new hybrid Carnival. Not an EV, BUT while I was there, I had the chance to look at the new EV9. Not gonna lie, I typically hate on SUVs, BUT this one is fairly compelling. It's pretty darn advanced, spacious, and with Hyundai/Kia bringing their A-game to the EV market, I have no doubt it's going to be an excellent vehicle if the Ioniq5 is any indication. Apparently Hyundai's coming out with their counterpart to the EV9 soon. The Ioniq9 I think? Anyway, something to keep an eye out for.

My biggest hesitation with the brands though honestly isn't with the vehicles themselves, but rather the dealers. Most I've visited are pretty crappy to be honest. One I went to this weekend was ghetto AF. I think this is what's held back the Genesis brand so much, which they're FINALLY addressing with nicer, separate dealerships. Perhaps I've become spoiled by the Mercedes dealers I've been visiting when I need parts.

Wish Mercedes made a 3-row competitor to Hyundai/Kia's offerings! Might have to check out the VW ID.Buzz when that comes out!!! Pretty sure it's the only fully electric minivan in the foreseeable future for the US market, right?

[Touring_Sedan]

Stopped at a Kia dealer this weekend to scope out the new hybrid Carnival. Not an EV, BUT while I was there, I had the chance to look at the new EV9. Not gonna lie, I typically hate on SUVs, BUT this one is fairly compelling. It's pretty darn advanced, spacious, and with Hyundai/Kia bringing their A-game to the EV market, I have no doubt it's going to be an excellent vehicle if the Ioniq5 is any indication. Apparently Hyundai's coming out with their counterpart to the EV9 soon. The Ioniq9 I think? Anyway, something to keep an eye out for.

My biggest hesitation with the brands though honestly isn't with the vehicles themselves, but rather the dealers. Most I've visited are pretty crappy to be honest. One I went to this weekend was ghetto AF. I think this is what's held back the Genesis brand so much, which they're FINALLY addressing with nicer, separate dealerships. Perhaps I've become spoiled by the Mercedes dealers I've been visiting when I need parts.

Wish Mercedes made a 3-row competitor to Hyundai/Kia's offerings! Might have to check out the VW ID.Buzz when that comes out!!! Pretty sure it's the only fully electric minivan in the foreseeable future for the US market, right?

We cross shopped the Telluride and EV9. A loaded Telluride was $55K. A loaded EV9 was close to $80K. Hard pass.

[MontuckyFried]

We cross shopped the Telluride and EV9. A loaded Telluride was $55K. A loaded EV9 was close to $80K. Hard pass.

$80K?! You sure that wasn't dealer markup? One I saw at the dealer seemed somewhat loaded and it was mid-50s.
Here's a new one for mid-$40s: https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...icle/725573277

Plus if they depreciate anything like their other EVs (which they will), 1-3 year old models will actually be super affordable.

[Touring_Sedan]

$80K?! You sure that wasn't dealer markup? One I saw at the dealer seemed somewhat loaded and it was mid-50s.
Here's a new one for mid-$40s: https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...icle/725573277

Plus if they depreciate anything like their other EVs (which they will), 1-3 year old models will actually be super affordable.

It wasn't markup. It was almost a year ago so supplies were shorter. Granted, it was a fully loaded model but we sat in a cheaper model and it was just depressing. The only thing that makes the EV9 special is the quality of the materials and features, both are missing on the cheaper models.

[MontuckyFried]

It wasn't markup. It was almost a year ago so supplies were shorter. Granted, it was a fully loaded model but we sat in a cheaper model and it was just depressing. The only thing that makes the EV9 special is the quality of the materials and features, both are missing on the cheaper models.

Ohhh. GT-Line. No wonder. Yeah, I think I'd rather go for a long range model anyway and skip the performance models (Kia's GT-Line or Hyundai's N) due to their battery range hit. While I was not looking at the GT-Line you were, the materials seemed pretty nice to me.

Either way. "Sir, this is an EV thread."

[Touring_Sedan]

Ohhh. GT-Line. No wonder. Yeah, I think I'd rather go for a long range model anyway and skip the performance models (Kia's GT-Line or Hyundai's N) due to their battery range hit. While I was not looking at the GT-Line you were, the materials seemed pretty nice to me.

Either way. "Sir, this is an EV thread."

Ummmmm??? The range difference between the "Land" and the "GT Line" is 10 miles. I'd have to drop down to a RWD model to gain 30 extra miles. That's not going to work here.

[MontuckyFried]

Ummmmm??? The range difference between the "Land" and the "GT Line" is 10 miles. I'd have to drop down to a RWD model to gain 30 extra miles. That's not going to work here.

With the Ioniq5 it's like 220 for the N vs 290 for the dual motor AWD variant, but some here are experiencing numbers a bit better than that. Like closer to 300 if not more.

You're right that the EV9's numbers are much closer with only a 10 mile difference. I wonder what the real world (non-journalist flooring it all the time) numbers look like?

[Touring_Sedan]

I guess at the end of the day, if I was purchasing a stripped rental car spec model I'm sure it's fine. I'd hate staring at all the button blanks knowing that I cheaped out on the features. In order to get one that I'd enjoy driving, the prices are in Range Rover territory.... for a Kia.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Point taken, but Range Rovers start at ~$110k, FWIW.

[skaredshtles]

Point taken, but Range Rovers start at ~$110k, FWIW.

That's a stripped, rental car spec model?

[Touring_Sedan]

That Range Rover has waaaaaay to much hard grey plastic. Gross.

[MarcusBrody]

Ohhh. GT-Line. No wonder. Yeah, I think I'd rather go for a long range model anyway and skip the performance models (Kia's GT-Line or Hyundai's N) due to their battery range hit. While I was not looking at the GT-Line you were, the materials seemed pretty nice to me.

Either way. "Sir, this is an EV thread."

Even the GT-Lines are currently listed in the mid/high 60s where I am at. The base models are in the mid-40s. I've been curious about them, though really I probably don't need that large of an EV for my needs. Still, we could use it for 95% of our needs of commuting, shuttling kids, bikes, etc. and just have the gas car for longer range road tripping/camping.

I suspect I'd be more open to the base model than Touring_Sedan, but I haven't sat in them to compare so I don't know.

[MontuckyFried]

Even the GT-Lines are currently listed in the mid/high 60s where I am at. The base models are in the mid-40s.

Yup. I actually ended up doing a quick nationwide search and you can find brand new loaded GT-Lines all day long for mid/high 50s that show MSRP of closer to $80K but are coming pretty discounted. Maybe clearing out '24s to make way for '25 models? So I'm not sure what Touring's on about. Perhaps that's what he saw at the time, but EVs have clearly become more of a buyer's market since he last went shopping. Makes the math MUCH more favorable than it used to be.

I suspect I'd be more open to the base model than Touring_Sedan, but I haven't sat in them to compare so I don't know.

Same here. Even in base form, they got PLENTY of oomph.

[Touring_Sedan]

So I'm not sure what Touring's on about.

Here's what I'm on about. I'm not searching nationwide for a fucking car. I'm grabbing what's here in town and this is it.

The only discount is the bullshit "Customer Cash" which requires you to finance it through their lender.




I'm sure you can find one for $29.95 but I think it's silly to MSRP an EV9 at $80k when a similarly equipped Telluride is $30K cheaper. I could buy the Telluride and a Nero for that.

[MontuckyFried]

Here's what I'm on about. I'm not searching nationwide for a fucking car. I'm grabbing what's here in town and this is it.

Well, there's your problem, mister. You're shopping like a moran. If you have the chance to save over $20,000+ on the same car by getting out of town, then it's worth hopping on a plane 1-way and making a road trip out of it, is it not? If nothing else, it's leverage with your local dealer. ESPECIALLY since so many are willing to deliver these days.

But if you don't mind getting completely ripped off, then I guess it is what it is. Consider your point about having to drop $80K on an EV9 officially debunked. Well, except in the Salt Lake area that is.

[Touring_Sedan]

Well, there's your problem, mister. You're shopping like a moran. If you have the chance to save over $20,000+ on the same car by getting out of town, then it's worth hopping on a plane 1-way and making a road trip out of it, is it not? If nothing else, it's leverage with your local dealer. ESPECIALLY since so many are willing to deliver these days.

But if you don't mind getting completely ripped off, then I guess it is what it is. Consider your point about having to drop $80K on an EV9 officially debunked. Well, except in the Salt Lake area that is.

Jesus fuck you can't be wrong about anything can you? Except caulking.

You must be fun at parties.

[MarcusBrody]

Touring_Sedan said he was shopping at a time when dealers were still wringing the last dollar out of the supply chain. I was just pointing out that the EV9 has become a much better value proposition as it's dropped to below MSRP selling prices.

The only thing that I think I'd really miss on the base model vs the higher trims is the memory seats. My wife and I are very different sizes. We both drive one of our vehicles now, but it isn't too bad as the seat adjustment is manual so I basically put the seat almost all the way back and almost all the way down and she does the opposite. Being able to just slide it is faster/less annoying than having to wait for the seat motor.

[toast2266]

If you have the chance to save over $20,000+ on the same car by getting out of town, then it's worth hopping on a plane 1-way and making a road trip out of it, is it not?

There's no fucking way I'm doing that for an electric car. It's one thing to deal with recharging on a vacation road trip. It's another thing entirely to deal with it when I just bought the thing and am trying to get back home as quickly as possible.

That said, you can ship a car from / to anywhere in the continental US for like $2K or less.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[MontuckyFried]

There's no fucking way I'm doing that for an electric car. It's one thing to deal with recharging on a vacation road trip. It's another thing entirely to deal with it when I just bought the thing and am trying to get back home as quickly as possible.

That's true for most buyers, BUT you left out the next part of what I said:

If nothing else, it's leverage with your local dealer. ESPECIALLY since so many are willing to deliver these days.

...

That said, you can ship a car from / to anywhere in the continental US for like $2K or less.

Yup! Spend a couple grand to save possibly tens of thousands.