Electric car thread

[alpinevibes]

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...ing-other-evs/

They charged that VW no problem. Meanwhile we know VW is one of the brands planning to formally adopt the Tesla plug standard.

Alright alright alright

[muted reborn]

I think you may have been the guy that was posting here about buying an EV bus fleet for your city - so you probably know this - but the battery degradation over time and not being able to charge to 100% to keep the battery in tip top condition really chews into miles. My 2018 long range Model 3 now tops out at 247 (at 90% 'max' charge) from the advertised 310. If it's a similar situation with the VW, those miles will be quite limited especially in winter.

[alpinevibes]

Yeah I got an EV school bus for my fleet two years ago. Haven’t used enough to see the degradation, but that’s good to remember


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[schuss]

I think you may have been the guy that was posting here about buying an EV bus fleet for your city - so you probably know this - but the battery degradation over time and not being able to charge to 100% to keep the battery in tip top condition really chews into miles. My 2018 long range Model 3 now tops out at 247 (at 90% 'max' charge) from the advertised 310. If it's a similar situation with the VW, those miles will be quite limited especially in winter.

Did it ever hit 310 though (I ask as Tesla is being sued about this right now)?

[muted reborn]

Did it ever hit 310 though (I ask as Tesla is being sued about this right now)?

Never felt like it was close, but I never tracked it. I've done a handful or road trips on it and on those trips I was always confused why I had to stop so soon. Me daily driving 4 miles to work or doing errands doesn't give me enough time to think about accuracy of it. When I drive 60 miles to ski I probably lose 100 miles in the winter. Can't be all because of the cold, it's usually 20-30 degrees around here.


Seems like every EV is way below the EPA rating and what the car companies claim. Telsa is the worst of course.

[Dromond]

I think you may have been the guy that was posting here about buying an EV bus fleet for your city - so you probably know this - but the battery degradation over time and not being able to charge to 100% to keep the battery in tip top condition really chews into miles. My 2018 long range Model 3 now tops out at 247 (at 90% 'max' charge) from the advertised 310. If it's a similar situation with the VW, those miles will be quite limited especially in winter.

I’m trying to ballpark based on what you are saying, and this makes me think that with your car, I would have some range anxiety doing a 180 mile RT, 55-65mph, 7,000’ climbing drive to skiing in 20-30 degree temps. With winter tires and a roof box, it could be a squeaker or not make it. Does that sound likely to you?

[muted reborn]

I’m trying to ballpark based on what you are saying, and this makes me think that with your car, I would have some range anxiety doing a 180 mile RT, 55-65mph, 7,000’ climbing drive to skiing in 20-30 degree temps. With winter tires and a roof box, it could be a squeaker or not make it. Does that sound likely to you?

I also have a winter tires and a roof box. I don't think you'd make it and you'd have to stop on the way back for about 15 minutes at a supercharger to get home. You would get some miles back or not burn any miles from regenerative braking going down 7000' feet though. You just don't want to drop your battery below 15-20% because it damages the battery. I'd put on the wheel covers for a bit more areo range and fold down the seats and put skis inside and not use the box, if it's 3 or less people.

Also my older Model 3 doesn't have a heat pump that newer Model 3's have, so that should help a bit in the cold.

[plugboots]

I also have a winter tires and a roof box. I don't think you'd make it and you'd have to stop on the way back for about 15 minutes at a supercharger to get home. You would get some miles back or not burn any miles from regenerative braking going down 7000' feet though. You just don't want to drop your battery below 15-20% because it damages the battery. I'd put on the wheel covers for a bit more areo range and fold down the seats and put skis inside and not use the box, if it's 3 or less people.

Also my older Model 3 doesn't have a heat pump that newer Model 3's have, so that should help a bit in the cold.

JFC

[Dromond]

I also have a winter tires and a roof box. I don't think you'd make it and you'd have to stop on the way back for about 15 minutes at a supercharger to get home. You would get some miles back or not burn any miles from regenerative braking going down 7000' feet though. You just don't want to drop your battery below 15-20% because it damages the battery. I'd put on the wheel covers for a bit more areo range and fold down the seats and put skis inside and not use the box, if it's 3 or less people.

Also my older Model 3 doesn't have a heat pump that newer Model 3's have, so that should help a bit in the cold.

Thanks for the detailed response - much appreciated. Clearly it’s cutting it close one way or another, and that is with a very aero car with good range. Winter, and the accessories (box, tires) plus battery degradation really do a number on it. If you want that stuff and to still be able to make that 180 mile mountain drive with a buffer when the car is a few years old, it sounds like you would really need to start with well over 300 miles of range new. It sounds like my Subaru is going skiing for a few more years at least.

Evangelists please note that I’m not hating or telling you it can’t be done - just trying to figure out what a given trip takes under certain conditions.

FWIW my family has a super short range, cheap EV and two gas guzzlers. It’s most common that my wife commutes in the EV and I WFH, but when I happen to be doing a 30 minute solo commute in a gas car now it just seems extremely silly and wasteful - like why am burning a gallon or more of gas on a drive that I could do in a 60 mile range EV?

[ColMan]

FWIW my family has a super short range, cheap EV and two gas guzzlers. It’s most common that my wife commutes in the EV and I WFH, but when I happen to be doing a 30 minute solo commute in a gas car now it just seems extremely silly and wasteful - like why am burning a gallon or more of gas on a drive that I could do in a 60 mile range EV?

Yeah. If I have the option, I'm driving the our EV. In the past month since we picked it up, we've put 1,102 miles on the EV (at a cost of $39 according to the Tesla app) and about 100 miles on our gas guzzler (at a cost of around $25). Plus the EV is 10x more fun to drive.

[muted reborn]

Thanks for the detailed response - much appreciated. Clearly it’s cutting it close one way or another, and that is with a very aero car with good range. Winter, and the accessories (box, tires) plus battery degradation really do a number on it. If you want that stuff and to still be able to make that 180 mile mountain drive with a buffer when the car is a few years old, it sounds like you would really need to start with well over 300 miles of range new. It sounds like my Subaru is going skiing for a few more years at least.

I just remembered when we got it, we would take turns skiing at Solitude / watching kids at home, so two trips in one day going up about 7000' vert and 200 miles in one day. Car would sit in the cold most of the day while we skied, of course....and we probably had 290 miles of range at the time (didn't charge to 100%) and there was no problem. We had miles to spare and didn't ever dip dangerously low - I can't remember how much we had left.

So MAYBE you'd make it in my old car these days without stopping, but I'd guess 5-10-ish minute super charger stop is probably necessary. Those chargers are ridiculously fast on an empty battery, if you just need 20-30 miles it would be FAST.

[Ted Striker]

You just don't want to drop your battery below 15-20% because it damages the battery.

I know this gets debated ad nauseam on EV forums, reddit, etc, but really? This is just, like, my, opinion, man, but my two cents is that you can drive down below 20%, but don't let it go flat. And don't let the car sit for too long below 20.

Also IMHO, charging to 100% stresses the battery more than driving below 20. So if you need to consume 80% of the battery in one go, 90-10 is better than 100-20.

Thoughts?

[J. Barron DeJong]

I know this gets debated ad nauseam on EV forums, reddit, etc, but really? This is just, like, my, opinion, man, but my two cents is that you can drive down below 20%, but don't let it go flat. And don't let the car sit for too long below 20.

Also IMHO, charging to 100% stresses the battery more than driving below 20. So if you need to consume 80% of the battery in one go, 90-10 is better than 100-20.

Thoughts?

I thought the companies managed this, that a displayed 100% charge isn’t actually full battery capacity, and that 0% displayed still has power in the cells.

[muted reborn]

I know this gets debated ad nauseam on EV forums, reddit, etc, but really? This is just, like, my, opinion, man, but my two cents is that you can drive down below 20%, but don't let it go flat. And don't let the car sit for too long below 20.

Also IMHO, charging to 100% stresses the battery more than driving below 20. So if you need to consume 80% of the battery in one go, 90-10 is better than 100-20.

Thoughts?

I dunno the real answer.

Below 20% features start to turn off though. I think it also slows down once it's about dead. I don't remember.

I thought the companies managed this, that a displayed 100% charge isn’t actually full battery capacity, and that 0% displayed still has power in the cells.

When my wife had 0% on a road trip, she got an extra 10 miles on empty, so yes to that.

[J. Barron DeJong]

When my wife had 0% on a road trip, she got an extra 10 miles on empty, so yes to that.

But I believe the management goes further than that. What you’re describing is the same as the fuel gauge in a gas car showing empty, but that always happens with a couple gallons still in the tank, just to keep people out of trouble.

What I’m saying is that even after that extra 10 miles was used there was actually still energy in those cells, but the management system won’t allow the car to use it, to protect the cells and increase their lifespan.

[dunfree]

I dunno the real answer.

real answer is going to very between ev manufacturers, and over the lifetime of the ev

[J. Barron DeJong]

… and over the lifetime of the ev

I believe I’ve read about manufacturers that will allow something like 70% of the actual battery capacity to be used initially, but then increase that as the cells begin to wear out, so that the range doesn’t drop off as much with age.

[Ted Striker]

Definitely varies between manufacturers and even models.

When I was looking last fall, I ended up embracing my inner asshole douchenozzle and bought a BMW i4. That car's buffer is approximately 3 kWh (approx 4%). I've seen/heard that's Tesla's is around 4.5%, and that all of it is below the SOC showing zero (but don't know for sure).

BMW doesn't publish how much of that is on the top or bottom, but considering their recommendation of driving in the 80-to-10% envelope, I'm going to assume it's biased to the discharged side as well.

Youtuber Bjorn Nyland drove the dual motor i4 until it stopped. Everything still worked and full power was available down to around 2-3% SOC. At that point power was limited to 75% and the range was showing 10km until dead. (I'll note here that the displayed range on the i4 is a complete joke, and not to be taken seriously)

At 1% battery the car showed 1 km range and the power was reduced to 50%, but heat/ac etc were still working.
At zero range the available power cut to about 30% with the SOC still showing 1%.
When the battery hit zero the climate control shut off, but the car kept going.
Went into limp mode after driving about 19km on 0%
He gave up at 20.2 km past empty.

Pretty sure he's done that with a Tesla as well, if anyone's interested.

[muted reborn]

What I’m saying is that even after that extra 10 miles was used there was actually still energy in those cells, but the management system won’t allow the car to use it, to protect the cells and increase their lifespan.

Gotcha. I still don't know much about that though.

Definitely varies between manufacturers and even models.

When I was looking last fall, I ended up embracing my inner asshole douchenozzle and bought a BMW i4.

Ha, I've never heard of that car before. Or the i5, iX and the i7. Did you get the XDrive 40? Do you like it?

[mattig]

Based on software hacks that get BMW PHEVs up from 30-ish electric miles to 45+ (17kwh to 24kwh, I think) confirms the built- in longevity nanny IMO. I'm sure it's standard practice.

And no shame in the i4. Those are sweet! EV guts without the interior weirdness of the iX or tesla.

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[PB]

ICE vehicles all do the same: expanding and shrinking the fuel tank as needed. Every body says so.

[dunfree]

ICE vehicles all do the same: expanding and shrinking the fuel tank as needed. Every body says so.

“blueprinting” was an ICE thing where you could get more power out of the engine with the same components if they were held to more stringent tolerances (they cost more). This isn’t much different

[Ted Striker]

I believe I’ve read about manufacturers that will allow something like 70% of the actual battery capacity to be used initially, but then increase that as the cells begin to wear out, so that the range doesn’t drop off as much with age.

Didn't see this earlier, but wouldn't be surprised. Gotta be a fine line between 'double secret probation' battery capacity and the elusive 300 miles on a charge (due to lugging all that weight around).

Ha, I've never heard of that car before. Or the i5, iX and the i7. Did you get the XDrive 40? Do you like it?

I have the eDrive 40, so single motor, rear wheel drive. I do like it, and it pretty much fell into my lap. Took over a pre-order from someone who had a change of heart, so I couldn't choose the configuration or color, but if I had a do-over I wouldn't change much.

Here's Bucky the beaver in all her glory



(the spots were from driving through a rain storm)

And no shame in the i4. Those are sweet! EV guts without the interior weirdness of the iX or tesla.

No turn signals either!

I was just poking fun at myself. The car's great.

IIRC, it was you who suggested it in this thread. Initially, I had ruled it out because of the price disparity, but after learning Tesla had already met their quota (so no tax credit) and the used market for model 3s was dramatically overpriced here in the PNW - especially considering there were a half dozen on every car lot in Seattle - the price gap closed significantly. And the interior is Eurocar nice.

Totally agree that there's something to having an EV that doesn't scream electric, and I've always gravitated toward sleepers. Only one person has approached me in public to talk about the car, and he only knew what it was because he's an indy BMW mechanic.

[mattig]

No turn signals either!

I was just poking fun at myself. The car's great.

IIRC, it was you who suggested it in this thread. Initially, I had ruled it out because of the price disparity, but after learning Tesla had already met their quota (so no tax credit) and the used market for model 3s was dramatically overpriced here in the PNW - especially considering there were a half dozen on every car lot in Seattle - the price gap closed significantly. And the interior is Eurocar nice.

Totally agree that there's something to having an EV that doesn't scream electric, and I've always gravitated toward sleepers. Only one person has approached me in public to talk about the car, and he only knew what it was because he's an indy BMW mechanic.

Good stuff! Glad you're loving it. I actually like the gratuitous beaver tooth

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[oldnew_guy]

I have the eDrive 40, so single motor, rear wheel drive. I do like it, and it pretty much fell into my lap. Took over a pre-order from someone who had a change of heart, so I couldn't choose the configuration or color, but if I had a do-over I wouldn't change much.

Here's Bucky the beaver in all her glory








Totally agree that there's something to having an EV that doesn't scream electric, and I've always gravitated toward sleepers. Only one person has approached me in public to talk about the car, and he only knew what it was because he's an indy BMW mechanic.

I really don't understand why EV's all need to look so distinct and they don't just stick an electric drivetrain in a normal car. This is way more my style.