Better Schools Won’t Fix America

[4matic]

Friend of mines father died recently. He was teenager in Nazi Germany. Story his son told was that kids would go face a teacher one on one. In his case the teacher threw a pile of change on the table and he had count the change visually and give a quick answer. Answer right and it was academics, answer wrong and it was trade school.

[Meadow Skipper]

The answers are very simple--living minimum wage, affordable public college education, nationwide K-12 education funding (not tied to property tax base), universally available subsidized pre-school and after school programs, vocational education for the non-academically-inclined, adequate pay for teachers, universal affordable health care, adequate mass transit. How to pay for it all?--steeply progressive income tax, eliminate the capital gains preference, a wealth tax on global assets of citizens. Achieving all this is simply a matter of the 90% opening their eyes, getting off their asses and voting for the right candidates They need to stop swallowing the bullshit that what matters are guns, abortion, and homosexuality--the crap that has people voting for the favored candidates of the wealthy and big corporations. The 90% should be able to outvote the 10%, no? If they don't they deserve what they get.

I’m down with this. It’s worth a try, no?

[FLS]

I’m down with this. It’s worth a try, no?

Hope and Change baby!

[redacted user]

Protip: Dems are almost as rotten as the GOP when it comes to corruption. They deliver a comparable package only with LGBTQ-themed wrapping.

[TBS]

The answers are very simple--living minimum wage, affordable public college education, nationwide K-12 education funding (not tied to property tax base), universally available subsidized pre-school and after school programs, vocational education for the non-academically-inclined, adequate pay for teachers, universal affordable health care, adequate mass transit. How to pay for it all?--steeply progressive income tax, eliminate the capital gains preference, a wealth tax on global assets of citizens. Achieving all this is simply a matter of the 90% opening their eyes, getting off their asses and voting for the right candidates They need to stop swallowing the bullshit that what matters are guns, abortion, and homosexuality--the crap that has people voting for the favored candidates of the wealthy and big corporations. The 90% should be able to outvote the 10%, no? If they don't they deserve what they get.

Add in "Honkin' Hudge reduction in defense spending" and I'm down.

[old goat]

Friend of mines father died recently. He was teenager in Nazi Germany. Story his son told was that kids would go face a teacher one on one. In his case the teacher threw a pile of change on the table and he had count the change visually and give a quick answer. Answer right and it was academics, answer wrong and it was trade school.

according to friends it's better than that now although certainly not perfect. Still a German blue collar worker is doing better than an American w a BA or BS and a shit ton of debt and no health insurance.

[iceman]

"ROI" is the buzz term for many/most kids going to college these days (or at least for their parents), but if you want ROI, become a master plumber, electrician or any of a number of other careers that will never be roboticized and where you get paid good money to train and learn.

But most kids want to work sitting down in the AC and in front of a screen. If we could figure out how to get the message across that a good job is a good job, regardless of field, even if you have to get dirty to do it, we'd be getting somewhere.

[ncskier]

"ROI" is the buzz term for many/most kids going to college these days (or at least for their parents), but if you want ROI, become a master plumber, electrician or any of a number of other careers that will never be roboticized and where you get paid good money to train and learn.

But most kids want to work sitting down in the AC and in front of a screen. If we could figure out how to get the message across that a good job is a good job, regardless of field, even if you have to get dirty to do it, we'd be getting somewhere.

Well said. I owned a business grossing 3-4 million a year before 30, sold it for a good multiple before 33 and did it all being a lowly trim carpenter. I sold it to BMC millwork which is a coastal conglomerate. At one point I was installing Millwork from Jacksonville to Asheville for multi family apartments and retirement communities like del Webb. What started as my summer job framing homes, progressed to full millwork packages for tract builders. Finished college but I would have taken a pay cut to work a “real job”. Company was featured in fine home building and journal of light construction.
Before the naysayers chime in, I had no outside help. Father died when I was fairly young and no one in my family had money. Just right place right time and right skill set that builder were looking for.
I have no problem with my kids learning a trade. Although we do emphasis good grades in my house also.
I have a good childhood friend clearing 7 figures every year as a stone mason. Builds entry monuments for developers and limestone exteriors for institutional projects like colleges. Well oiled machine for a company and has homes at watercolor in Florida, Charlottesville and a giant home in charlotte. Runs no debt and drives a dodge megacab with Walmart pants. Can quit anytime.

[PNWbrit]

"become a master plumber, electrician or any of a number of other careers that will never be roboticized

Heating engineer will probably have a good career path in a dystopian future

[liv2ski]

I have known a few guys in my life that did really good in the trades, but the working conditions were not 9-5 and go home to the family. A merchant Marine Captain who was at sea 3 months on, 3 month off. An undersea welder working oil platforms. A welder that did the inside welds on oil pipelines, mostly in the middle east and a plumbing contractor that did installs for new construction. All made really good money and had decent time off compared to the 40-50 hour a week grind, 50 weeks a year.
I wish kids knew all the careers out there, but the old high school counselor is woefully inadequate in that dept.

[glademaster]

The trades don't get anywhere near the respect they deserve as viable career fields for people who would rather not be chained to a desk for 50 years. Intelligence or academic inclination shouldn't have a bearing on who ends up in a trade, and who elects to pursue a managerial-class career. I would be willing to bet that there are more electricians who could learn how to satisfactorily perform a middle-management job in a timely manner than there are middle managers who could pick up being an electrician in the same fashion. Yes, even with YouTube.

I work on the regulatory side of things, but I'm checking in as the guy who went to a high school with it's own fuckin' golf course, a well-regarded University, and who has found his most satisfying career avenue to be related to the construction trades.

[Viva]

Can't recall if the below link was posted on TGR prior, but it offers a fascinating read on the origins of our (i.e., the United States's) current economic inequality. It's relevant here in respect to the central theme from the article referenced in Livtoski's initial posting in this thread.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...the-super-rich

I like this article, as it changed how I looked at the issue...got me thinking differently. It also discusses stratagems for correcting wealth differential.

[Doremite]

Can't recall if the below link was posted on TGR prior, but it offers a fascinating read on the origins of our (i.e., the United States's) current economic inequality. It's relevant here in respect to the central theme from the article referenced in Livtoski's initial posting in this thread.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...the-super-rich

I like this article, as it changed how I looked at the issue...got me thinking differently. It also discusses stratagems for correcting wealth differential.

Thanks for posting the link. Also enjoyed the article. I remain cynical that this can be stopped but appreciate Zucmans long view attitude.

Another worth reading when time permits.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...rticle/559130/

[old goat]

The trades don't get anywhere near the respect they deserve as viable career fields for people who would rather not be chained to a desk for 50 years. Intelligence or academic inclination shouldn't have a bearing on who ends up in a trade, and who elects to pursue a managerial-class career. I would be willing to bet that there are more electricians who could learn how to satisfactorily perform a middle-management job in a timely manner than there are middle managers who could pick up being an electrician in the same fashion. Yes, even with YouTube.

I work on the regulatory side of things, but I'm checking in as the guy who went to a high school with it's own fuckin' golf course, a well-regarded University, and who has found his most satisfying career avenue to be related to the construction trades.

The trades could use some help--unions or guilds to enforce decent working conditions, benefits, and a retirement plan. The trouble with Americans is that we're so damn independent. It makes it too easy for the people who run things to pick us off one by one. Strength in numbers, strength in organization.

Can't recall if the below link was posted on TGR prior, but it offers a fascinating read on the origins of our (i.e., the United States's) current economic inequality. It's relevant here in respect to the central theme from the article referenced in Livtoski's initial posting in this thread.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...the-super-rich

I like this article, as it changed how I looked at the issue...got me thinking differently. It also discusses stratagems for correcting wealth differential.

Piketty's book "Captialism in the 21st Century" argues that the growth in wealth disparity is structural, because over the centuries rents (the term economists use for things like return on investments and--wait for it--rental income) is 5% while growth in productivity, which is the driver of increase in wages, is 2%. The relative leveling in the second half of the 20th century was an anomaly, driven by the recovery from 2 world wars and the depression. Without corrective action--a wealth tax is his remedy--the gap will keep increasing. He predicts revolution if correction is not carried out. I worry that we may just get more Trumps--as the world wide success of right wing autocratic politicians is already showing.

When I said earlier that the solution is simple--it isn't really. The economic solutions are but there are still huge sociological and psychological obstacles when you have an underclass, especially when the underclass is geographically segregated and easily identifiable physically. But you can't expect me to fix everything.

[schuss]

Protip: Dems are almost as rotten as the GOP when it comes to corruption. They deliver a comparable package only with LGBTQ-themed wrapping.

In light of current conditions: bullshit

[SumJongGuy]

Protip: Dems are almost as rotten as the GOP when it comes to corruption. They deliver a comparable package only with LGBTQ-themed wrapping.

Lets compare indictments charges, and convictions/guilty pleas before arriving at that conclusion.

[wyeaster]

it was just as easy to conclude the dems are as rotten as the gop before the celebrity apprentice as it is now.

[redacted user]

In light of current conditions: bullshit

Lets compare indictments charges, and convictions/guilty pleas before arriving at that conclusion.

Ya it's not even but it's not far off. Dems I respect as actually being different from republicans:

- Bernie, who has been marginalized and ignored by democrats for ~30 years
- AOC, who deserves to be President as she's one of the only souls in Congress that is willing to work for you & me
- A fake Indian

[SumJongGuy]

Ya it's not even but it's not far off.

Still bullshit.



And it's not for lack of trying to find and prove criminal activity on the part of democratic administration and cabinet members..

Imagine the heads exploding if Obama had instructed HRC to not show up for the Benghazzi inquiries like Trump is doing with his minions with regard to their corruption and obstruction inquiries..

[redacted user]

Compelling imagery. If the democratic party isn't completely and hopelessly corrupt why have they:
- supported the Iraq war
- reinforced the war on drugs for the last 50 years
- given cover for the pharma's exploitation of the sick
- refused to impeach the most corrupt president in the last 100+ years
- declined to pursue criminal penalties for crimes of the past decade against home buyers & investors
- not addressed the prison industrial complex in a meaningful way
- ignored the interests of American labor despite persistent factor price equalization since the 80s
- persistently ranked the interests of corporations over that of individuals in terms of policy


All told, I see no reason for optimism in dem victories aside from the few noted above. The political body in this country is no longer functional at the Federal level. Indictments & powerpoints don't improve things on the ground, good policy does.

[redacted user]

It's the long con. Talk enough good to get them to vote for you. Then fuck them. Over and over.

[SumJongGuy]

It's the long con. Talk enough good to get them to vote for you. Then fuck them. Over and over.

There's a difference between obscenely illegal and corrupt and failure to represent the low income constituents over the high income, high level donor constituents. It may not matter to you but it does to me. Protecting Social Security, Medicare, womens rights, gay rights, etc still matters and is still very different between the GOP and Democratic administration agendas.

[spanghew]

Compelling imagery. If the democratic party isn't completely and hopelessly corrupt why have they:
- supported the Iraq war
- reinforced the war on drugs for the last 50 years
- given cover for the pharma's exploitation of the sick
- refused to impeach the most corrupt president in the last 100+ years
- declined to pursue criminal penalties for crimes of the past decade against home buyers & investors
- not addressed the prison industrial complex in a meaningful way
- ignored the interests of American labor despite persistent factor price equalization since the 80s
- persistently ranked the interests of corporations over that of individuals in terms of policy


All told, I see no reason for optimism in dem victories aside from the few noted above. The political body in this country is no longer functional at the Federal level. Indictments & powerpoints don't improve things on the ground, good policy does.

And where are the flying cars, mental telepathy and my check for a million dollars?


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[The Reverend Floater]

How about we just start with term limits and campaign finance reform? Can we all agree to that?

[Peruvian]

How about we just start with term limits and campaign finance reform? Can we all agree to that?

Campaign finance reform is dead. The Supremes killed it in 2010.